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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident didn't

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involve aliens at all it was completely

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silent it comes right over our head it's

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sort of like flying saucer really

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standing in the clearing he turned over

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to my father and held his hand and he

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looked in his eyes and said we're not

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alone welcome to podcast UFO for our

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live show we're live every Wednesday at

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8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on the dark

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matter radio network please remember to

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visit the website podcast UFO calm for

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past episodes blogs and forums during

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the show feel free to participate live

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in our chat room and don't forget to

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Like us on our very active Facebook page

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hello and welcome to the show this is

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Martyn Willis your host and I am back

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from Russia that was way too long to be

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over there it feels really really good

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to be home we are very lucky to live in

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the country that we live in and also

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just let you know that intro I'm gonna

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have to change that because it says

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we're live on the Dark Matter digital

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network I don't know where I found that

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intro but that's an old one we are not

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but however if you can't support our

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show and you'd like to listen to full

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shows we are still on the Dark Matter

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digital network and that's every

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Thursday evening it's a like a podcast

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to our podcast every Thursday evening

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from 10:00 to midnight you can catch it

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there you can always catch our shows

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live for free the fall show that's

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either on YouTube on our YouTube channel

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you can subscribe to that or on podcast

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UFO comm and that's every Wednesday at 8

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to 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time

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also the everything else show I did a

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show last Monday with Nick Redfern we

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talked about his theory on Roswell which

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is entirely different than I think most

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of us have heard and also we talked

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about cryptid animals and maybe kind of

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like the paranormal side of what his

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thoughts were on that why no one has

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ever found a Bigfoot why no one has

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found interviewed these others that

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countless people say they see no

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evidence why is that so that's what we

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talk about now that if you're a

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subscriber to the show that comes out as

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a podcast and and that will be coming

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out on Saturday so you can listen to

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those shows on either Monday or if

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you're a subscriber you can listen to

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the show in your media player for free

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speaking of supporters we I did the

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statistics about three and a half

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percent of our listeners support the

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show so I want to say thank you very

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very much for that three and a half

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percent that helps us out that does pay

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the bills and it's it's really nice to

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have that we do get a lot of downloads

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use a lot of bandwidth dedicated server

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and all that our guests this evening is

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Mark O'Connell and he's going to be

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talking about his book on dr. J Allen

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Hynek very interesting man and before

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that Alejandro Rojas could may not make

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the UFO updates he double-booked himself

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according to him or he's playing hooky

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so he's not going to be on this week

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he'll be back next week instead I have

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Mick West now Mick has been on the show

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a couple of times and I really respect

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his work as very thorough work he has

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meta bunk org and we're going to be

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talking about the nazca three-fingered

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alien and there's more these mummies

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that's we're going to be talking about

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and what his research and how he

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uncovered the most likely thought is

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that these are these are some type of

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hoaxes whether in recent hoax or an

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early hoax but that's kind of what it

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boils down to so we're gonna be talking

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about that and welcome to the show how

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are you Mick good good how you got your

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money

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great so first of all how do you find

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all these things I mean you you do one

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or two things a week that you dive into

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and try to find you know explanations

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for what they really are so how do you

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find all these things to take a look at

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and dive deep into what they are well

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you know I've been doing it for a while

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so I kind of I think Facebook knows that

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the thing that I like so I get up type

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of thing showing up on my Facebook feed

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well they also have a Google filter set

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for weird news and UFOs and every time a

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story pops up in the media it just

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emails me with the story and I give it a

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quick look to see it was interesting and

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if it is I might dove into it a little

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bit now the last time we had you on you

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were talking about the Chilean UFO and

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you basically kind of broke the story of

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what that really was now the entire you

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know Chilean government was behind that

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as being a UFO and you found all the

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data when the plane was exactly where

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the plane was the course of it and

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everything lined up perfectly that

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changed that whole story yeah it was

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pretty it was a it was a team effort

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really those other people I met a banker

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who helped but yeah we we've done that

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type of thing before like tracking down

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a plane and I think once we realize that

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it was probably a commercial jet and we

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were able to track down the traffic for

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the area it was actually fairly

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straightforward yeah you know basically

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did a lot of that before with the whole

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chemtrails stuff that I look into right

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right I know that's another another

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point out there that you hear a lot

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about and basically since we're just

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touching on that subject real quickly

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there's this nothing ever there's no

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evidence that there is such a thing as

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chemtrails everybody says they're

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spraying things for climate control or

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to control people and all that there's

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no there's never any solid evidence any

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anything like that is there not that

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I've come across many people bring up a

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lot of things I mean the most common

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thing that people bring up is the idea

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that the trails shouldn't persist but

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I've got like a whole a whole bookshelf

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over there filled of books on the

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weather that explained that contrails do

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possess to me that people have done ever

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since planes were invented so the basic

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premise of the theory is flawed and

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everything else is just going to follow

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that isn't doesn't really have to do

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with altitude as well with them hanging

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around it does yes it has to do with

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temperature which of course and actually

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get higher it gets colder

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so when you're up at 35,000 feet the

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temperature is usually 40 below or

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colder and that temperature the the

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exhaust basically condenses and freezes

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instantly and causes creates a contrail

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which is really just a type of cloud

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it's not really anything special it's

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not like a smoke plume or anything it's

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just a cloud triggered by the exhaust

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yeah but yet you know speaking of the

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altitude and temperature I had Nick

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Redfern on my show and on Monday and he

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we were talking about high-altitude

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balloons and he said you know the higher

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they go sometimes they'll burst because

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of the heat of the Sun and I thought

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about it afterwards you know I know that

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outside of a plane is you know well

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below zero so that that's not really the

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case is it once a high-altitude balloon

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keeps going higher doesn't get hotter

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does it no it doesn't really they burst

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because of the the reduction rate

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pressure yeah basically like they'll

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just keep going up until they the gas

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inside of them will expand and weather

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balloons for example are designed so

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that the balloon will burst at a certain

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altitude and then the package the

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radiosonde at the bottom will return

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back to earth so yeah it's not really

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being heated up by by the by the Sun

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although if you get really really high

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then the air is too thin to actually

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take away the heat in the form of cold

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so it kind of works the other way around

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as you get a lot higher as I think all

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the thermo pause where things actually

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get warmer as you get higher but

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generally the gal about that now what is

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your your background you have a science

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background or is it just a passion study

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of yours nah I don't really have a

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science background my degree is in

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computer science which I don't really

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consider a science myself but is this a

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science on my degree but I know when I

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was young I read a lot of science books

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and now since I've been doing Mellon

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Bank and Cantrell science control

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science has been going for about 10

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years now I just had a lot of exposure

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to these types of things and

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investigating this type of thing and now

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used the stuff from my background as a

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video game programmer I do lots of 3d

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geometry calculator

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for the video Gracia and I do you know

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just kind of comes together and it's

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it's just what I do now and so I'm kind

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of good at it okay so let's talk about

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the claims first of all we know Jaime

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masane is involved in this and got have

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you say is it gaia do you know how

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that's pronounced yeah gaya yeah yeah so

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they're involved in this so and also I

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read somewhere online that there's a

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symposium they're trying to put together

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we're 350 dollars per ticket in that

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type of stuff I couldn't find out any

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date or anything when that's supposed to

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happen but what is your what was your

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conclusions on onto what these things

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are now there's more of them that have

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been rolling out one that looks like it

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possibly it looks like it has eggs

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inside and stuff like that all right so

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so let's let's talk about where this led

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you and what your conclusions were well

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the first one I looked at was the the

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large specimen which came out in that

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guy over video which is kind of it's

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called into a fetal position it looks

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odd because it has these three fingers

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hams and 3/5 of a three-toed feet and it

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has this strange-looking face but when

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they actually show the x-rays of it

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that's kind of what you know making me

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suspect what it actually was

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because if you look at the x-rays of of

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the mummy you'll see that the bones in

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the hand look exactly like the middle

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three bones of a human hand but with the

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little finger and the thumb removed now

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there's a bunch of bones down here

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called the the metacarpals of the

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carpals or the ones at the bottom these

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are the metacarpals and as it looks like

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all that they did is they removed the

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little finger then remove the thumb and

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then they split the hand down here and

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if you compare what is a human skeleton

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would look like if you did that to the

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x-rays that they provide of the mummy it

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would look exactly the same so it really

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looks like it's just a human a human

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skeleton must be

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00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:11,029
modified to look unusual do you think

271
00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:13,970
now there's speculation that you know

272
00:11:18,910 --> 00:11:16,940
that this is very possible that this and

273
00:11:20,769 --> 00:11:18,920
I know that they modified some of these

274
00:11:23,139 --> 00:11:20,779
mummies with animal bones and things

275
00:11:28,410 --> 00:11:23,149
like that this is human bones but do you

276
00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:28,420
think this was done a long time ago or

277
00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:32,750
any ideas on when it was done you see

278
00:11:36,329 --> 00:11:33,800
that's the thing that's kind of very

279
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:36,339
difficult to say they say they've done

280
00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:40,250
they've done carbon dating on it which

281
00:11:44,769 --> 00:11:42,110
dates it back like a thousand years or

282
00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:44,779
so but that obviously only dates the

283
00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:47,060
actual material of the mummy we don't

284
00:11:50,439 --> 00:11:49,100
know if the entire thing dates but a

285
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:50,449
thousand years they could have actually

286
00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:52,850
put it together from other bits and

287
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,310
pieces that of things that were actually

288
00:12:01,060 --> 00:11:57,680
mummified a thousand years ago now there

289
00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:01,070
is a possibility that it was actually

290
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:03,889
created by the native people a thousand

291
00:12:10,569 --> 00:12:05,810
years ago perhaps for some reason they

292
00:12:12,730 --> 00:12:10,579
were making strange-looking mummies out

293
00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:12,740
of their dead people there's been

294
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,630
suggestions that they were visited by

295
00:12:20,259 --> 00:12:16,880
aliens and then they were trying to make

296
00:12:22,389 --> 00:12:20,269
the Dead look like the exam so that they

297
00:12:23,889 --> 00:12:22,399
would be more like the gods as they

298
00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:23,899
would see them and you know go up to

299
00:12:29,949 --> 00:12:27,230
join the gods but yeah there's really

300
00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:29,959
nothing to go by because no one's that

301
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:31,310
you looked at the archaeological site

302
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:34,790
where these specimens have supposedly

303
00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:36,170
come from and if you're doing

304
00:12:40,509 --> 00:12:38,660
archaeology really there the first thing

305
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:40,519
of the most important thing is to

306
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:43,370
actually secure and examine the site so

307
00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:46,730
you get a very solid record of exactly

308
00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:48,980
where these objects come from and you

309
00:12:52,930 --> 00:12:50,660
see them picking up these mummified

310
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:52,940
hands and waving it around like they're

311
00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:54,800
nothing it don't seem to be really

312
00:13:00,129 --> 00:12:56,569
taking the whole thing very seriously

313
00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:00,139
now isn't it difficult to get permission

314
00:13:06,759 --> 00:13:02,990
to actually go into these places and

315
00:13:11,439 --> 00:13:06,769
actually remove you know archaeological

316
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,449
oh yeah no they have the the Ministry of

317
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:13,279
Antiquities or whatever it's called it

318
00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:17,569
and in Peru but yeah they they're not

319
00:13:23,170 --> 00:13:21,470
supposed to be doing it the the official

320
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:23,180
channels are supposed to do it so you

321
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:25,040
know there's some debate in Peru about

322
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,690
you know exactly what's been going on

323
00:13:30,340 --> 00:13:28,880
and have they broken the law or is there

324
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:30,350
any evidence that they've done that but

325
00:13:35,470 --> 00:13:32,330
if Nell can actually prove that they

326
00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:35,480
took these things from anywhere then the

327
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:37,030
authorities can't really prove them

328
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:39,170
prove that they are taking them from

329
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:40,850
anywhere with that in itself implies

330
00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:43,910
that they they were faked but really you

331
00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:45,830
know the important thing here would be

332
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:48,470
seeing the archeological site another

333
00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:50,090
thing obviously would be taking some DNA

334
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:52,220
samples of the person seeing what

335
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:53,450
they're actually right for right right

336
00:14:02,050 --> 00:13:57,610
now as far as the cranial formation that

337
00:14:04,410 --> 00:14:02,060
that was nothing really that uncommon I

338
00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:04,420
mean they used to shape you know baby

339
00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:07,180
your from my infancy is to show that

340
00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:11,150
they still do in some places and you can

341
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:12,590
also occasionally get natural

342
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:14,810
deformations of human skulls that turned

343
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:16,010
out like that but yeah cranial

344
00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:18,650
modification of much more extreme forms

345
00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:20,540
we've seen that with the very long kind

346
00:14:26,830 --> 00:14:23,630
of conehead type shapes and in some

347
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:26,840
cultures so that in itself isn't really

348
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:29,180
suspicious is it one thing that looks

349
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:32,720
odd with the mummy is the eyes the thing

350
00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:34,490
about that is that they're not real they

351
00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:35,960
don't really show up like that on the

352
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:38,270
skeleton you can see that those eyes and

353
00:14:43,210 --> 00:14:40,130
those eye slits appear to have just been

354
00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:43,220
formed manually by some kind of clay or

355
00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:44,990
something on the Front's of the rice and

356
00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:46,790
the white you know at first they thought

357
00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:48,830
the white was like a plaster which is it

358
00:14:54,490 --> 00:14:52,670
is not it's something else that it's

359
00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:54,500
probably some type of life oxidations

360
00:15:01,270 --> 00:14:58,670
very dry there yeah exactly what it is

361
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:01,280
but it's not plaster they they say in

362
00:15:05,830 --> 00:15:02,810
one of the videos that it was diam

363
00:15:07,810 --> 00:15:05,840
Atticus earth which is it's a common

364
00:15:11,230 --> 00:15:07,820
material that you can buy at a gardening

365
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:11,240
supply store used for like a type of

366
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:13,850
fertilizer essentially or a bug killer

367
00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:16,850
and it's just it's a desiccant it's a

368
00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:19,070
thing that makes things dry so if the

369
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:22,190
white stuff its dome Atticus earth that

370
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:23,510
would be something you could figure out

371
00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:25,850
where that actually came from because it

372
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:27,830
may it may well be that that region

373
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:30,890
cuzco is very high you know it's cusco

374
00:15:33,890 --> 00:15:33,050
at like 13,000 feet so i don't know if

375
00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:33,900
they're going to have died

376
00:15:38,540 --> 00:15:36,150
takus earth because that's the remained

377
00:15:39,770 --> 00:15:38,550
of the remains of seashells I don't know

378
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:39,780
if they would have a source of that it

379
00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:42,480
sounds the facts that it is that sounds

380
00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:44,790
kind of modern and it's very bright you

381
00:15:48,380 --> 00:15:46,440
know whether that when they first said

382
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,390
it someone said it was plasterers said

383
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:50,240
that you know I from my personal

384
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:52,560
experience as an appraiser know that

385
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,810
plaster always yellows over time you

386
00:15:58,910 --> 00:15:56,160
know it doesn't stay bright like that

387
00:16:02,600 --> 00:15:58,920
yeah you know this is essentially it's

388
00:16:04,190 --> 00:16:02,610
calcified sea creatures tiny little tiny

389
00:16:05,570 --> 00:16:04,200
little daiya daiya kind of like mere

390
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:05,580
shim I don't know if you know what mere

391
00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:10,080
shim is yeah I don't know it's they

392
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:11,820
actually make pipes and carvings out of

393
00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:15,710
it it's yeah oh yeah now the thing that

394
00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:18,030
got me right off the bat when I first

395
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:19,620
saw this someone sent me the original

396
00:16:24,530 --> 00:16:22,560
video and right off the bat is the alien

397
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:24,540
you know why do they have to throw the

398
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:26,490
alien tag on this thing right off the

399
00:16:33,730 --> 00:16:29,360
bat I mean they are discovering human

400
00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:33,740
you know different types of human type

401
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:36,270
skeletons they always have and so why

402
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:39,290
right off the bat say it's alien I mean

403
00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:42,660
yeah and I think if you saw the article

404
00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:44,640
I wrote I I made a list that I think

405
00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:45,960
like seven different rings it could

406
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:48,870
possibly be and you do from the most

407
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:50,850
probable thing to the least probable

408
00:16:58,250 --> 00:16:54,930
thing and alien seems to be pretty much

409
00:17:01,250 --> 00:16:58,260
the least likely thing that would be and

410
00:17:04,910 --> 00:17:01,260
various types of fake or natural

411
00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:04,920
occurrence are more possible things like

412
00:17:08,930 --> 00:17:06,990
yeah it could be a previously

413
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:08,940
undiscovered animal like some kind of

414
00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:11,550
ape or something like that but it's all

415
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:14,370
oh it's very unlikely there's something

416
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:15,510
you could prove very quickly by doing

417
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:17,310
some DNA testing which they yeah you

418
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:18,450
know that haven't done are they do you

419
00:17:22,699 --> 00:17:20,370
not happen to know if that is something

420
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:22,709
they're going to be doing and revealing

421
00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:25,260
before they have this symposium or are

422
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:27,900
they gonna I don't know what that plans

423
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:29,910
are you know if I was to guess that what

424
00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:31,710
their plans are I think okay and I try

425
00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:35,390
to draw this out as long as they can and

426
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:41,070
they will eventually say that it is some

427
00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:43,170
kind of composite thing either a human

428
00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:45,150
skeleton or other smaller ones will be

429
00:17:50,170 --> 00:17:46,700
human skeletons

430
00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:50,180
bones mixed with animal bones I think

431
00:17:56,290 --> 00:17:53,180
that's event and actually where they're

432
00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:56,300
gonna and it was made to look in the

433
00:17:59,290 --> 00:17:57,950
image of aliens so there's still got

434
00:18:01,960 --> 00:17:59,300
that kind of connection and it's still

435
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:01,970
kind of an interesting thing but I don't

436
00:18:06,430 --> 00:18:03,590
think they're going to be able to keep

437
00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:06,440
up the idea that these are actual alien

438
00:18:12,130 --> 00:18:09,320
remains enduring up right well hey Nick

439
00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:12,140
thanks so much and you know I think you

440
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:13,790
Ron the very first time you're on is

441
00:18:19,180 --> 00:18:16,400
when someone was saying they were

442
00:18:21,910 --> 00:18:19,190
spawning a triangle UFO on the moon and

443
00:18:23,530 --> 00:18:21,920
you figured that out exactly what that

444
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:23,540
was had nothing they just had to do it

445
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:26,290
the way the images were pieced together

446
00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:29,570
right if I remember right yeah that's

447
00:18:34,270 --> 00:18:31,100
right alright thanks so much and

448
00:18:37,420 --> 00:18:34,280
everyone it's yeah it was just an image

449
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,430
up pixel right right all right so this

450
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:39,200
is Mick West and he's from meta bunk

451
00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:41,450
just spelled just the way it sounds

452
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:45,230
Emmy t8b UNK dork check out his website

453
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:49,310
and he has uncovered a lot he is the

454
00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:51,740
friendly debunker okay so a lot of

455
00:18:57,490 --> 00:18:54,020
democracy bad name but he's the friendly

456
00:19:04,990 --> 00:18:57,500
debunker thanks a lot Nick all right

457
00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:05,000
thank you okay okay alright so see make

458
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,260
you're gonna have to hang up if you

459
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:08,960
would I can't I can't do that separately

460
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:11,810
from our guest so our guest thank you

461
00:19:18,790 --> 00:19:16,160
our guest good talking to you here we

462
00:19:20,830 --> 00:19:18,800
are our guest as Mark O'Connell mark has

463
00:19:23,770 --> 00:19:20,840
been on the show before and actually

464
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:23,780
when he was on the show last time he did

465
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:25,340
bring up the fact that he was writing a

466
00:19:33,370 --> 00:19:29,750
book on dr. J Allen Hynek and and he did

467
00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:33,380
and and it's a great book I've heard a

468
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:35,390
couple of interviews I have not read the

469
00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:38,240
book I hope to and that's a thing I you

470
00:19:42,130 --> 00:19:40,100
know a lot of people ask I had someone

471
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:42,140
ask in the last show basically why

472
00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:44,330
aren't you reading the books well I have

473
00:19:50,530 --> 00:19:47,270
a full-time career as well as doing this

474
00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:50,540
show I read I love to read but I can't

475
00:19:55,330 --> 00:19:53,750
read books like George Knapp can read a

476
00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:55,340
book in a day it takes me a long time to

477
00:19:59,930 --> 00:19:56,630
read a book I'm not like that

478
00:20:03,310 --> 00:19:59,940
so anyway I'm here

479
00:20:05,870 --> 00:20:03,320
with Mark O'Connell how are you mark I

480
00:20:08,659 --> 00:20:05,880
am great Martin thanks for having me

481
00:20:10,610 --> 00:20:08,669
here and I think you were you were on

482
00:20:15,860 --> 00:20:10,620
the show just before you started writing

483
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:15,870
the book if I if I got that right I I'm

484
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:19,049
a little I'm a little foggy on that that

485
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,970
was the last couple years of my life

486
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:22,559
have been so full of research for the

487
00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:24,960
book that my timetables sort of get

488
00:20:32,779 --> 00:20:29,400
compressed well you were on I remembered

489
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:32,789
that I think I connected you with race

490
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:36,780
Stanford because Ray knew dr. Hynek hmm

491
00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:39,750
yes that yeah okay then that does go

492
00:20:45,860 --> 00:20:42,120
back probably at least three years yeah

493
00:20:47,919 --> 00:20:45,870
I guess yeah right yes yeah yeah yeah

494
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:47,929
yeah it would have to be that far right

495
00:20:56,620 --> 00:20:54,720
so how is the book doing it's doing

496
00:20:59,240 --> 00:20:56,630
pretty well we're having steady sales

497
00:21:01,070 --> 00:20:59,250
just publishing world is all new to me

498
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:01,080
the write the professional writing I've

499
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:04,559
done in the past has generally been for

500
00:21:10,190 --> 00:21:07,530
the screen TV and movie scripts and and

501
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:10,200
that world moves it a it seems slow when

502
00:21:13,850 --> 00:21:12,510
you're you're in it but compared to

503
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:13,860
publishing is it's pretty fast

504
00:21:18,620 --> 00:21:17,010
publishing is things move very slowly in

505
00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:18,630
publishing I'm learning you have to

506
00:21:25,549 --> 00:21:22,830
measure things in weeks and so you know

507
00:21:27,409 --> 00:21:25,559
I'm just doing a lot of doing a lot of

508
00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:27,419
media appearances still and doing a lot

509
00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:29,580
of social media and just enjoying the

510
00:21:35,390 --> 00:21:31,080
hell out of this whole book promotion

511
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,400
great and now when you when you wrote

512
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:37,679
the book hang on let me just take

513
00:21:44,210 --> 00:21:41,120
something here when you wrote the book

514
00:21:46,399 --> 00:21:44,220
well I should put it this way what what

515
00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:46,409
made you decide to write about

516
00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:51,870
Hynek himself I didn't really decide it

517
00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:53,640
the opportunity kind of fell into my lap

518
00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:56,340
I I'm sure the last time I did your show

519
00:22:02,899 --> 00:21:58,470
I talked to about my blog high

520
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:02,909
strangeness high strangeness UFO calm I

521
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:06,049
started that about five years ago and

522
00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:09,150
was always looking for new material to

523
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:13,350
write about and sort of stumbled

524
00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:16,559
across a website for the Center for UFO

525
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:18,390
studies in Chicago while I was living in

526
00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:20,970
Chicago at the time and thought hey I

527
00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:22,860
need to I need to pay these guys a visit

528
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:26,160
so I got ahold of mark rodiger who is

529
00:22:31,330 --> 00:22:28,110
the scientific director of gross I

530
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:31,340
should add Koufos is the UFO research

531
00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:34,260
organization founded by J Allen Hynek in

532
00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:36,390
the 1970s so they were still around in

533
00:22:44,659 --> 00:22:43,049
Chicago five years ago and I as I said

534
00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:44,669
like contacted mark Rottier he invited

535
00:22:50,510 --> 00:22:46,740
me to stop by and take a look good their

536
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:50,520
archives and I did and that became the

537
00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:52,740
first of a whole series of visits there

538
00:22:56,930 --> 00:22:54,809
was so much fun stuff in the archives at

539
00:22:58,700 --> 00:22:56,940
marks house but I just kept going back

540
00:23:02,120 --> 00:22:58,710
over and over again to just look through

541
00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:02,130
files and look for fun UFO documents and

542
00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:03,809
books and things finally on one of those

543
00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:06,120
one of those visits mark just kind of

544
00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:08,520
casually mentioned hey we've always been

545
00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:10,230
looking for someone to write the

546
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:12,980
definitive account of dr. Hynix

547
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,260
career and I said please III would love

548
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:18,960
to do that so that's how it all started

549
00:23:21,860 --> 00:23:20,370
I was just I was in the right place at

550
00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:21,870
the right time mark just made this

551
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:24,900
comment that day and I just jumped on it

552
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:27,690
so that was the start of this long long

553
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:32,970
crazy ride and it's it's been Finn's yes

554
00:23:38,419 --> 00:23:35,520
I think I mentioned to you the other day

555
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:38,429
that I was I was looking for interviews

556
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:42,000
with Hynek and I actually was watching

557
00:23:46,940 --> 00:23:44,490
one with Tom Schneider talk show host

558
00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:46,950
and yeah and that was great

559
00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:49,470
so I'm still in touch with I actually

560
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:52,350
knew Tom he was a neighbor when I lived

561
00:23:58,010 --> 00:23:56,159
out in California and I he passed away I

562
00:24:01,100 --> 00:23:58,020
met him just before he passed away about

563
00:24:03,049 --> 00:24:01,110
about a year ahead and great guy he

564
00:24:05,930 --> 00:24:03,059
loved dan Ackroyd's imitation him and

565
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:05,940
dan actually were friends

566
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:08,010
Deana record used to do an imitation on

567
00:24:12,649 --> 00:24:09,929
Saturday Night Live of Tom Snyder as the

568
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:12,659
taco shows for anyone you know this goes

569
00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:16,250
way back into the early 80s I believe

570
00:24:25,070 --> 00:24:21,990
anyway so I talked to Tom's his widow

571
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:25,080
Pam Burke who's a producer she was a

572
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:26,970
producer of his show as well

573
00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:29,880
and she said that J Allen Hynek was one

574
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:33,000
of their very very favorite guests they

575
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:35,850
loved him Wow he said he was really

576
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:38,970
funny and he was so interesting and and

577
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:41,730
brilliant and they just loved having him

578
00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:45,330
on the show well I've watched the I

579
00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:47,100
don't know if it's the entire interview

580
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:48,870
but you can see at least portions of it

581
00:24:55,610 --> 00:24:52,380
on YouTube and it is a really fun it's a

582
00:24:58,880 --> 00:24:55,620
fun interview to listen to you can tell

583
00:25:02,750 --> 00:24:58,890
that you you can tell that Hynek felt he

584
00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:02,760
was talking with someone who respected

585
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:05,430
what he had to say and so you know and

586
00:25:10,790 --> 00:25:07,500
so that that animated Hynek you know

587
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:10,800
more than he might have been you know in

588
00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:13,170
into some other interview so they had a

589
00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:15,390
nice energy together yeah yeah now the

590
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:17,660
thing I think is the most fascinating

591
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:22,170
part about Hynek is the switchover you

592
00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:25,050
know he was the guy to debunk and then

593
00:25:30,620 --> 00:25:27,540
all of a sudden it's like hey there's

594
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:30,630
really something to this and then it

595
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:33,750
totally dives into it what do you know

596
00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:38,220
in your research about him as say from

597
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:40,950
childhood on if he had a fascination

598
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:43,110
with say science fiction or anything

599
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:46,400
like that did you uncover any of that

600
00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:49,110
yeah there is there's definitely some of

601
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:51,300
that in his background he was born in

602
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:54,930
1910 as Halley's Comet was appearing in

603
00:25:59,150 --> 00:25:57,090
the sky so he was he was born under the

604
00:26:01,460 --> 00:25:59,160
comet which seemed to have some

605
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:01,470
influence on his life when he was about

606
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:02,730
eight years old he came down with

607
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:03,750
scarlet fever

608
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:06,690
and he was bedridden for for many many

609
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:11,520
days and his his mother just went

610
00:26:14,570 --> 00:26:12,930
through every book in the house and then

611
00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:14,580
started borrowing books from neighbors

612
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:16,980
so that she could keep her son occupied

613
00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:20,400
and so she read some of the books to him

614
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:21,870
he read some of the books himself but

615
00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:24,630
one of those books was an astronomy

616
00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:27,750
textbook so so from the research I did

617
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:30,030
that was that moment when he was sick in

618
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:33,510
bed at age 8 was his first real contact

619
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:37,020
with the scientific world and apparently

620
00:26:41,630 --> 00:26:39,330
he just he fell in love with astronomy

621
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:41,640
he fell in love with the

622
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:43,350
while reading that book when he was 8

623
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:46,770
years old he also had interests in in

624
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:49,170
writing he was a really a pretty good

625
00:26:51,770 --> 00:26:49,860
writer

626
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:51,780
in his high school days he was a regular

627
00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:53,130
contributor to his high school's

628
00:26:57,410 --> 00:26:54,780
literary magazine he wrote some really

629
00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:57,420
fun short stories Wow isn't it funny how

630
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:59,460
like a turn in life can just change

631
00:27:03,530 --> 00:27:01,200
everything you know and a lot of times

632
00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:03,540
you do hear about it is a sickness that

633
00:27:08,030 --> 00:27:05,550
changes someone's life and gets them

634
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:08,040
interested in things that just turned

635
00:27:12,530 --> 00:27:11,010
before I forget this Shane in the chat

636
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:12,540
room and welcome back

637
00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:14,370
Shane I should say welcome back me and

638
00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:17,550
the regular timeslot is Shane want to

639
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:19,800
know if the image on the book was an

640
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:22,200
actual unexplained UFO what are any

641
00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:26,880
story on that that that is art that was

642
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:29,640
created by the HarperCollins graphic art

643
00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:34,740
I I mean it's it's clear it's clear that

644
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:37,980
they looked at a lot of vintage UFO

645
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:39,600
pictures because they really captured

646
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:41,220
that look in that style of those kinds

647
00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:43,200
of images like the Rex Efrain photos up

648
00:27:48,650 --> 00:27:46,020
for example but yeah I believe that was

649
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:48,660
completely created by there well you

650
00:28:00,820 --> 00:27:50,210
could have lied you had your chance

651
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,430
alright so hi Nick

652
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:06,960
he were going back home this is many

653
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:11,010
years ago so he was contacted first by

654
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:14,010
the air force at what what point in how

655
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:16,710
was he standing as an astronomer at that

656
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:23,520
time what did they reach out to him he

657
00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:25,110
had virtually no standing as an

658
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:27,420
astronomer actually he had been he was

659
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:30,330
teaching at the Ohio State University

660
00:28:38,180 --> 00:28:35,370
and Ohio Wesleyan University and he was

661
00:28:40,250 --> 00:28:38,190
a he I think at this point he may have

662
00:28:42,620 --> 00:28:40,260
been an associate professor not a big

663
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:42,630
wheel in the world of science or

664
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:45,210
astronomy or academia at all he was just

665
00:28:52,670 --> 00:28:47,850
you know he was a young young professor

666
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,680
kind of making his way in the world but

667
00:28:57,789 --> 00:28:54,480
he had spent some time

668
00:29:02,060 --> 00:28:57,799
during World War two engaged in some

669
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:02,070
high-security work for the US government

670
00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:04,650
working on what was called the proximity

671
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,590
fuze the first smart weapon was

672
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:09,600
developed in during World War two it was

673
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:12,720
a it was a rant video device that you

674
00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:15,470
could put in the nose of a warhead and

675
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:18,059
it would send out radio waves ahead of

676
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:19,919
it as it was flying through the air and

677
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:22,110
it could be programmed to detonate when

678
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:25,710
the return time of those bounced off

679
00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:30,510
radio would return to the the fumes it

680
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:32,760
could tell how close it was to the

681
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,380
target and it could set the warhead off

682
00:29:38,690 --> 00:29:36,480
at a certain distance so as you can

683
00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:38,700
imagine this made things a lot safer for

684
00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:40,200
our Gunners they didn't always have to

685
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:42,780
hit a bull's-eye every time and so a lot

686
00:29:48,590 --> 00:29:46,200
more lived as a result of that Hynek had

687
00:29:53,270 --> 00:29:48,600
high security clearance because he had

688
00:29:55,789 --> 00:29:53,280
worked on this project here you've got

689
00:29:59,060 --> 00:29:55,799
the poor airs at wright-patterson Air

690
00:30:00,860 --> 00:29:59,070
Force Base in Dayton Ohio so they're

691
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:00,870
right down the road from Columbus where

692
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:02,010
the universities are we're Hynix

693
00:30:08,299 --> 00:30:04,710
teaching and they are starting to get in

694
00:30:12,409 --> 00:30:08,309
late 1947 early 1948 they are starting

695
00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:12,419
to get buried in the UFO reports ever

696
00:30:16,430 --> 00:30:14,280
since Kenneth Arnold had seen his string

697
00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:16,440
of flying saucers flying through the

698
00:30:24,049 --> 00:30:20,630
Cascade Mountains in in June of 1947

699
00:30:26,299 --> 00:30:24,059
UFOs were were on everybody's mind and

700
00:30:28,669 --> 00:30:26,309
the Air Force was getting deluge with

701
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:28,679
dozens and dozens and dozens of string

702
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:30,510
and UFO reports from around the country

703
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:33,530
well they were doing their best to

704
00:30:42,919 --> 00:30:41,740
misidentifications of perfectly ordinary

705
00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:42,929
things

706
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:45,990
airplanes balloons birds astronomical

707
00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:47,730
objects so and they were they were

708
00:30:52,580 --> 00:30:48,870
pretty good at explaining those

709
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:52,590
sightings away but they needed a they

710
00:31:00,340 --> 00:30:55,770
need a credible no-nonsense scientific

711
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:00,350
spokesperson to back them up on this so

712
00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:02,010
Hynek was teaching at a university

713
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,100
literally right up the road and he

714
00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:07,679
already had had some top-secret

715
00:31:11,409 --> 00:31:08,580
government

716
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:11,419
security clearance so he was a guy who

717
00:31:15,710 --> 00:31:13,559
could be put to work on this project

718
00:31:18,139 --> 00:31:15,720
with a minimum of red tape so the Air

719
00:31:19,730 --> 00:31:18,149
Force guys paid Hynek a visit at Ohio

720
00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:19,740
State one day and said say have you ever

721
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:23,100
heard of these flying saucers and Hynek

722
00:31:25,460 --> 00:31:24,120
had heard of them and he thought they

723
00:31:28,669 --> 00:31:25,470
were kind of a joke he thought they were

724
00:31:30,649 --> 00:31:28,679
embarrassing and really he thought they

725
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:30,659
were a fad he believed that this was a

726
00:31:35,899 --> 00:31:33,529
fad that would die out in no time

727
00:31:38,029 --> 00:31:35,909
but they asked him if he would sign on

728
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:38,039
as a consultant to look over these UFO

729
00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:41,730
reports and and let them know which of

730
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:43,830
these reports he could write off as

731
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:46,799
simply a misidentification of an

732
00:31:52,129 --> 00:31:48,720
astronomical body or an astronomical

733
00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:52,139
occurrence so that was his job on what

734
00:31:57,139 --> 00:31:54,120
was then called project sign he was he

735
00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:57,149
was very good at it and he actually kind

736
00:32:01,100 --> 00:31:58,740
of enjoyed debunking all these UFO

737
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:01,110
reports because as I said he thought it

738
00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:03,450
was a thought it was a fad and I think

739
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:04,830
he thought that by debunking the Air

740
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:07,919
Force's reports he could hasten the

741
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:10,440
demise of this of this fad which was

742
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:12,570
very much anti science as far as he was

743
00:32:17,299 --> 00:32:14,490
concerned Wow well we have some

744
00:32:20,090 --> 00:32:17,309
questions coming in on the chat room

745
00:32:22,159 --> 00:32:20,100
someone wanted to know if if he ever had

746
00:32:24,590 --> 00:32:22,169
any view on Roswell

747
00:32:27,139 --> 00:32:24,600
now I know Roswell wasn't made much of

748
00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:27,149
at the time basically you know it was

749
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:29,100
like a two day event and swept under the

750
00:32:34,820 --> 00:32:32,610
rug basically yeah you're right at the

751
00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:34,830
time it really it really was

752
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:37,169
inconsequential I'll tell you a little

753
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:39,000
background on that for for your

754
00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:42,240
questioner when I was researching the

755
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:44,940
book I could not find anything for the

756
00:32:51,620 --> 00:32:48,510
longest time that Hynek ever said or

757
00:32:54,110 --> 00:32:51,630
wrote or thought about the Roswell story

758
00:32:56,690 --> 00:32:54,120
or about any saucer crash story because

759
00:32:58,250 --> 00:32:56,700
of course there are many saucer crash

760
00:33:00,409 --> 00:32:58,260
stories not just the Roswell story

761
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:00,419
so I was having a hard time finding

762
00:33:04,669 --> 00:33:02,610
anything and at one point I was talking

763
00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:04,679
with mark Roger again the scientific

764
00:33:10,250 --> 00:33:06,870
director of the Hynek Center for UFO

765
00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:10,260
studies and I said you know when I get

766
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:13,080
to Roswell I don't think I'm gonna

767
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:15,450
really have much to say about it in this

768
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:18,049
book and Mark said well you know what

769
00:33:21,890 --> 00:33:20,100
you don't really need to say anything

770
00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:21,900
about Roswell in the book

771
00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:23,790
he said it he said it was really not a

772
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:27,300
factor in hynek's career or in his

773
00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:30,360
thinking at all and well I thought it

774
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:31,590
would be a mistake to not mention

775
00:33:36,410 --> 00:33:33,810
Roswell at all that would be kind of

776
00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:36,420
hard hard to do in a book that is

777
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:39,300
focusing on the history of UFOs so there

778
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:41,130
is a short segment in the book about

779
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:43,230
Roswell but Hynek made it very clear in

780
00:33:49,670 --> 00:33:47,610
several interviews that he was extremely

781
00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:49,680
uncomfortable with saucer crash stories

782
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:51,870
and and the big big reason for that was

783
00:33:58,100 --> 00:33:55,050
if you start talking about a flying

784
00:34:01,130 --> 00:33:58,110
saucer crash landing and leaving behind

785
00:34:04,670 --> 00:34:01,140
a debris field leaving behind wreckage

786
00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:04,680
then what you're actually saying is that

787
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:08,820
object was a physical manufactured

788
00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:12,450
object and Hynek was absolutely not into

789
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:14,550
that idea at all that nuts and bolts

790
00:34:20,570 --> 00:34:17,100
theory Hynek stayed as far away from

791
00:34:22,669 --> 00:34:20,580
that as he possibly could so so Hynek

792
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,679
just Hynek did a really good job of

793
00:34:27,139 --> 00:34:24,720
keeping his hands clean where where

794
00:34:28,700 --> 00:34:27,149
Roswell was concerned and again that

795
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:28,710
applies to pretty much every saucer

796
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:30,720
crash story Hynek just didn't want to

797
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:32,010
have anything and that goes all the way

798
00:34:38,750 --> 00:34:35,520
to the end of his life he we felt that

799
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:38,760
way yeah how about that yeah now had he

800
00:34:45,530 --> 00:34:42,810
ever had a sighting himself yes I'm so

801
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:45,540
glad you asked that because I have to

802
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:47,370
tell you Martin I kind of I kind of

803
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:49,169
laugh at myself now but I was almost

804
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,280
completely done writing the book before

805
00:34:56,419 --> 00:34:55,440
that question even occurred to me and I

806
00:34:59,060 --> 00:34:56,429
thought wait a minute

807
00:35:01,220 --> 00:34:59,070
well I need to find out if Hynek ever

808
00:35:02,570 --> 00:35:01,230
saw any UFOs himself and it turns out he

809
00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:02,580
had he had had two different UFO

810
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:04,680
sightings I can't remember the dates

811
00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:09,210
offhand but he had seen a UFO out of the

812
00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:11,400
window of a commercial airliner one time

813
00:35:15,890 --> 00:35:13,830
one I believe was a night flight and he

814
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:15,900
did take some pictures of it but as is

815
00:35:21,050 --> 00:35:18,800
so often the case with UFO pictures

816
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,060
taken at the spur of the moment you

817
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:23,040
can't really tell a whole lot from the

818
00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:26,250
image on the film so he saw the UFO from

819
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:29,070
the airplane and then years later he was

820
00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:31,650
at his family's vacation cottage in

821
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:35,460
Ontario Canada which is a very remote

822
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:35,850
look

823
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:39,450
a cabin built on a lake in in the deep

824
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:43,170
deep North Woods of Ontario and he saw

825
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:46,440
something one day over the over the lake

826
00:35:52,460 --> 00:35:50,910
that where his cabin was built and he

827
00:35:53,540 --> 00:35:52,470
had no phone at the cabin so there

828
00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:53,550
wasn't really a whole lot he could do

829
00:35:58,220 --> 00:35:55,020
about it they were very very isolated

830
00:36:01,730 --> 00:35:58,230
but when he had a chance he did contact

831
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:01,740
someone at the Canadian Air Force or Air

832
00:36:06,110 --> 00:36:03,470
Ministry I'm not sure what they call it

833
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:06,120
and he gave them the details of his

834
00:36:10,070 --> 00:36:07,890
sighting the day at the time the you

835
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:10,080
know latitude and longitude and said you

836
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:12,810
know did anybody else report this and he

837
00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:14,310
he came up empty-handed

838
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,900
there there were no other reports that

839
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:18,480
he was ever able to find so so he saw

840
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:22,740
two UFOs but they were both seen very

841
00:36:27,110 --> 00:36:24,630
far away so he couldn't count them as

842
00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:27,120
Close Encounters so there was there was

843
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:29,640
no real wow factor to his UFO sightings

844
00:36:36,350 --> 00:36:31,170
I'll say Wow

845
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:36,360
confessed and I quote him in the book

846
00:36:40,820 --> 00:36:38,610
that he was he was rather disappointed

847
00:36:42,380 --> 00:36:40,830
he felt rather left now about them that

848
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:42,390
he had that he hadn't had a clue well

849
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:44,160
blue sky asked that question in the chat

850
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:45,270
room and I thought that was a good

851
00:36:55,010 --> 00:36:50,880
question to ask so he was such an

852
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:55,020
interesting man and he also came up with

853
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:56,310
for the person that doesn't know this

854
00:37:00,830 --> 00:36:58,140
he's the one that came up with the term

855
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:00,840
of the different Encounters Close

856
00:37:06,620 --> 00:37:02,610
Encounters of the first kind second

857
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:06,630
third kind fourth kind and was that is

858
00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:08,520
that something he actually coined how

859
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:15,890
yeah was it was part of a long process

860
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:19,110
with him he actually started to think in

861
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:23,220
terms of categorizing UFO events in the

862
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:25,920
late 1960s when the Condon committee at

863
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:28,520
the University of Colorado had

864
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:31,440
essentially taken over all UFO research

865
00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:33,480
the US government while the time during

866
00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:35,880
the during the time that they were that

867
00:37:41,210 --> 00:37:39,600
they were in in in existence and during

868
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:41,220
that time Hynek wrote he actually wrote

869
00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:42,330
an article that appeared in Playboy

870
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:45,960
magazine in 1967 and in that article he

871
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:47,790
started formulating his ideas for

872
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:49,710
classifying UFO events

873
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:52,310
that he was hoping that the Colorado

874
00:37:58,220 --> 00:37:56,130
committee people would adopt he thought

875
00:38:00,740 --> 00:37:58,230
maybe once maybe somebody on the on the

876
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:00,750
committee would replay a book and see

877
00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:03,210
his ID is there so at that early stage

878
00:38:09,140 --> 00:38:05,820
his idea was simply to isolate cases

879
00:38:13,550 --> 00:38:09,150
that had a high strangeness factor which

880
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:13,560
means anything that doesn't really

881
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:16,710
comport with the known laws of nature

882
00:38:22,849 --> 00:38:21,210
and physics and also cases that had a

883
00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:22,859
high credibility factor for the

884
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:25,020
witnesses which basically you know goes

885
00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:27,570
into the witness's social standing their

886
00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:32,280
state my into their education you know

887
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:35,790
all the factors so Hynek put isolate

888
00:38:40,970 --> 00:38:38,730
these case strangeness factor with high

889
00:38:42,829 --> 00:38:40,980
credibility witnesses and start looking

890
00:38:45,470 --> 00:38:42,839
for patterns among those sightings that

891
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:45,480
might be a way into at least starting to

892
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:49,440
understand the UFO phenomenon well the

893
00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:50,880
common committee did not adopt those

894
00:38:55,339 --> 00:38:52,859
ideas in the end but Hynek kept going

895
00:38:59,300 --> 00:38:55,349
with his thinking and eventually he sort

896
00:39:03,380 --> 00:38:59,310
of expanded things to a system that he

897
00:39:04,970 --> 00:39:03,390
he really first wrote about of the 1972

898
00:39:06,290 --> 00:39:04,980
book the UFO experience which which

899
00:39:09,740 --> 00:39:06,300
everyone should read it's a great great

900
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:09,750
book and he had actually two systems of

901
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:13,430
three categories each the first one was

902
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:15,960
general categorizations of UFO sightings

903
00:39:23,359 --> 00:39:18,390
that would include number one daylight

904
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:23,369
did number two meandering nocturnal

905
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:25,859
lights and number three visual radar

906
00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:28,050
sightings he was most interested in the

907
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:29,580
visual radar sightings because he felt

908
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:30,780
that those have the most scientific

909
00:39:34,910 --> 00:39:33,240
value so on top of those three

910
00:39:37,370 --> 00:39:34,920
categories then he went a step further

911
00:39:39,859 --> 00:39:37,380
and develop a three close encounter

912
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:39,869
categories in closest encounter number

913
00:39:46,099 --> 00:39:43,970
one was visual contact with the UFO

914
00:39:47,150 --> 00:39:46,109
within about five hundred yards he

915
00:39:49,849 --> 00:39:47,160
thought that was close enough so that

916
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:49,859
the witness could make out physical

917
00:39:56,990 --> 00:39:55,440
details saw eyes she outlined things

918
00:39:59,120 --> 00:39:57,000
things of that nature

919
00:40:02,480 --> 00:39:59,130
close encounter number two involved

920
00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:02,490
physical evidence so in this case a ce2

921
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:03,569
ka

922
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:07,890
involve a UFO leaving behind say landing

923
00:40:15,259 --> 00:40:10,890
pad imprints or or scorched grass where

924
00:40:16,489 --> 00:40:15,269
a UFO was seen to have landed possibly

925
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:16,499
some physical effects among the

926
00:40:19,130 --> 00:40:17,160
witnesses

927
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:19,140
you know retinal burns or sunburns or

928
00:40:22,579 --> 00:40:21,089
thinking it's like that all of those

929
00:40:25,219 --> 00:40:22,589
things have been they've been reported

930
00:40:27,709 --> 00:40:25,229
or one of my favorites making cars stall

931
00:40:31,189 --> 00:40:27,719
out and their headlights no dead so

932
00:40:35,269 --> 00:40:31,199
close encounter of the Third Kind the

933
00:40:37,009 --> 00:40:35,279
big one involves of course UFO occupants

934
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:37,019
entities that are associated with the

935
00:40:41,839 --> 00:40:38,609
UFO and either come out of the UFO or

936
00:40:44,029 --> 00:40:41,849
are seen close to the UFO and in those

937
00:40:46,759 --> 00:40:44,039
cases of course the witnesses sometimes

938
00:40:47,930 --> 00:40:46,769
they merely see these entities from a

939
00:40:52,249 --> 00:40:47,940
distance sometimes they actually

940
00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:52,259
interact with the entities so you've got

941
00:40:54,949 --> 00:40:53,430
so and then you've got those six

942
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,959
categories and of course they overlapped

943
00:41:00,289 --> 00:40:57,359
something that began as as a simple

944
00:41:02,959 --> 00:41:00,299
daylight disc could come within 500

945
00:41:05,769 --> 00:41:02,969
yards of you and suddenly become a close

946
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:05,779
encounter case so that's how Hynek

947
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:08,400
systematized I think that's a word

948
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:10,170
that's how that's how Hynek organized

949
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:12,930
his thinking and because he just

950
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:15,089
believed that you know as with all

951
00:41:20,299 --> 00:41:17,130
scientific data if you can categorize it

952
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:20,309
and start seeing patterns that is the

953
00:41:22,549 --> 00:41:21,690
best way to start to understand them

954
00:41:25,549 --> 00:41:22,559
yeah yeah

955
00:41:30,469 --> 00:41:25,559
did he as far as you know did he ever

956
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:30,479
think that he was going to be alive long

957
00:41:33,979 --> 00:41:32,160
enough to find out what was going on

958
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:33,989
like we all do

959
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:39,690
I love that question I think I think he

960
00:41:46,219 --> 00:41:43,190
was like a lot of us yes yes I think he

961
00:41:48,319 --> 00:41:46,229
starting out I think he really believed

962
00:41:50,269 --> 00:41:48,329
that it would be possible for us to to

963
00:41:51,529 --> 00:41:50,279
solve the mystery to answer all the

964
00:41:55,249 --> 00:41:51,539
questions we have about what these

965
00:41:58,459 --> 00:41:55,259
objects are I think later in life you

966
00:42:00,199 --> 00:41:58,469
know his hopes dimmed a little there's a

967
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:00,209
lot in my book about that when he ended

968
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:02,910
up leaving Chicago and moving to Arizona

969
00:42:08,689 --> 00:42:05,099
when he thought that he had financial

970
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:08,699
backing to form a really world-class UFO

971
00:42:15,709 --> 00:42:12,650
research center in Scottsdale there's

972
00:42:17,329 --> 00:42:15,719
and then and then that fell by the

973
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:17,339
wayside for a lot of complicated

974
00:42:24,289 --> 00:42:20,880
reasons so yeah towards the end I think

975
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:24,299
Hynek I think kinda kinda lost faith

976
00:42:27,380 --> 00:42:25,890
that we would ever understand the

977
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:27,390
problem but here's the interesting twist

978
00:42:32,809 --> 00:42:30,180
to that I also think just from my

979
00:42:34,279 --> 00:42:32,819
readings of his final interviews and his

980
00:42:36,410 --> 00:42:34,289
final talks with friends and his final

981
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:36,420
writings I think that he was actually

982
00:42:42,859 --> 00:42:39,119
okay with that I think he actually was

983
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:42,869
starting to think that as I say in the

984
00:42:46,279 --> 00:42:44,430
book some mysteries are meant to be

985
00:42:48,469 --> 00:42:46,289
savored and not necessarily solved

986
00:42:54,410 --> 00:42:48,479
I think I think he reached a point where

987
00:42:56,959 --> 00:42:54,420
he was okay with not knowing as long as

988
00:42:59,479 --> 00:42:56,969
we kept trying to find out what else I

989
00:43:02,959 --> 00:42:59,489
think that's all we can all help for you

990
00:43:06,259 --> 00:43:02,969
know I mean I I don't have any it goes

991
00:43:09,969 --> 00:43:06,269
back to I watched a documentary in the

992
00:43:13,609 --> 00:43:09,979
early UFO documentaries like the 60s and

993
00:43:15,769 --> 00:43:13,619
there was a an older guy in that and he

994
00:43:17,989 --> 00:43:15,779
was saying you know I think we'll find

995
00:43:20,809 --> 00:43:17,999
out in my lifetime he said that I'm

996
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:20,819
thinking this guy's long gone so it kind

997
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,680
of made me think about the whole topic

998
00:43:27,799 --> 00:43:25,200
in that in that way and think hey you

999
00:43:30,229 --> 00:43:27,809
know I'll probably never know it's it is

1000
00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:30,239
interesting to explore the topic that's

1001
00:43:36,370 --> 00:43:33,089
why I love you know doing this show we

1002
00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:36,380
have a question in the forum for you

1003
00:43:42,319 --> 00:43:39,660
from Kerry and that question is as Alan

1004
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,329
Hynek was an astronomer how did his

1005
00:43:47,390 --> 00:43:44,640
peers and astronomy regard him with his

1006
00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:47,400
UFO research especially when his opinion

1007
00:43:56,289 --> 00:43:50,609
changed about his belief in UFOs in

1008
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:56,299
later years a very loaded question

1009
00:44:02,479 --> 00:44:00,079
that's a complicated one hi annex i

1010
00:44:05,779 --> 00:44:02,489
annex relations with his fellow

1011
00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:05,789
scientists were sometimes very troubled

1012
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:10,440
sometimes very very negative and he

1013
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:11,729
didn't always make a whole lot of

1014
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:13,440
friends in the scientific community and

1015
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:14,910
of course you know some immediate names

1016
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:17,910
pop up Donald Menzel who was one of the

1017
00:44:23,089 --> 00:44:19,680
directors of the Harvard Observatory he

1018
00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:23,099
was he was an astronomy superstar and he

1019
00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:24,900
hated you of focused and everything to

1020
00:44:30,289 --> 00:44:27,180
do with them so he he was a thorn in

1021
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:30,299
hynek's side for many many years dr.

1022
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:31,570
James

1023
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:34,330
at the University of Arizona became a

1024
00:44:39,329 --> 00:44:36,330
UFO believer and just and just um

1025
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:39,339
visited Hynek once and just pounded on

1026
00:44:42,540 --> 00:44:41,170
his desk and said damn it Alan why have

1027
00:44:44,609 --> 00:44:42,550
you been sitting on all this good data

1028
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:44,619
and not sharing it with the rest of the

1029
00:44:52,849 --> 00:44:48,730
world so he had he had issues with

1030
00:44:54,990 --> 00:44:52,859
fellow astronomers but on the flipside

1031
00:44:57,599 --> 00:44:55,000
sometimes he had some very surprising

1032
00:45:00,450 --> 00:44:57,609
allies in the scientific world when he

1033
00:45:02,089 --> 00:45:00,460
got into the late 60s early 70s after he

1034
00:45:06,540 --> 00:45:02,099
had stopped working for the Air Force

1035
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:06,550
when he could sort of become he could be

1036
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:08,560
he could become more flexible and

1037
00:45:15,690 --> 00:45:13,150
actually more free in how he started the

1038
00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:15,700
UFO phenomena and once he was dissing it

1039
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:18,119
he actually started to gather around him

1040
00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:22,930
this loose association and they ended up

1041
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:25,030
big college it's a loose Association of

1042
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:27,040
scientists and some pretty heavy hitters

1043
00:45:34,530 --> 00:45:29,890
in the world of science and academia who

1044
00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:34,540
were willing I think to do it doesn't

1045
00:45:39,210 --> 00:45:37,180
mean that they believed this that or the

1046
00:45:41,579 --> 00:45:39,220
other thing about the UFO phenomenon but

1047
00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:41,589
it meant that they were they agreed with

1048
00:45:46,260 --> 00:45:44,200
Hynek that this subject was interesting

1049
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:46,270
enough and had a level of reality to it

1050
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:49,570
that made it worthy of serious

1051
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:52,570
scientific study so so for every

1052
00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:54,910
scientist who Hynek had a really bad

1053
00:46:01,040 --> 00:45:58,000
horrible relationship there were there

1054
00:46:03,870 --> 00:46:01,050
was another scientist who who kind of

1055
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:03,880
believed in what Hynek was doing and

1056
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:06,250
wanted to join forces with him so that's

1057
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:08,290
kind of a very heartening part of the

1058
00:46:11,790 --> 00:46:09,790
story that there there was always

1059
00:46:13,260 --> 00:46:11,800
somebody listening to Hynek even when he

1060
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:13,270
thought nobody was listening to uh

1061
00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:15,609
talking with Stan Friedman a while ago

1062
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:18,670
he mentioned that Donald Menzel actually

1063
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:21,130
had a CIA connection he was uncovered

1064
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:23,170
you know he had a high security

1065
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:25,210
clearance and so there was a that's kind

1066
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:28,690
of a mystery you know why he was so

1067
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:33,310
adamant against the UFO topic well

1068
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:35,530
especially since Donald Menzel had

1069
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,650
actually seen her fo really as as head

1070
00:46:43,410 --> 00:46:40,480
James McDonald yeah

1071
00:46:45,359 --> 00:46:43,420
how about that yeah it's weird yeah they

1072
00:46:47,099 --> 00:46:45,369
Donald Menzel I you I could probably

1073
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:47,109
write a book about him he's kind of a

1074
00:46:51,359 --> 00:46:48,910
mystery man there there are a lot of

1075
00:46:53,069 --> 00:46:51,369
parts to that guy's story that really

1076
00:46:55,950 --> 00:46:53,079
don't seem to fit together very well

1077
00:46:59,609 --> 00:46:55,960
interesting your next book you heard it

1078
00:47:01,980 --> 00:46:59,619
all here folks yeah um you know we

1079
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:01,990
having a little bit of a Skype I I have

1080
00:47:06,060 --> 00:47:04,150
a couple I have a couple ideas oh well

1081
00:47:08,970 --> 00:47:06,070
are you serious so go ahead and talk

1082
00:47:14,450 --> 00:47:08,980
about it if you would oh I was just

1083
00:47:17,370 --> 00:47:14,460
gonna say I have a couple of my idea is

1084
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:17,380
but we're still so devolved in in

1085
00:47:22,410 --> 00:47:20,079
promoting this book and spreading the

1086
00:47:24,329 --> 00:47:22,420
word that I'm not even I'm not close to

1087
00:47:26,370 --> 00:47:24,339
starting work on a second book but but I

1088
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:26,380
have some ideas percolating and they're

1089
00:47:30,180 --> 00:47:28,570
not all UFO really okay so I'll be

1090
00:47:33,089 --> 00:47:30,190
honest no problem hey can you turn off

1091
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:33,099
the camera on your skype we having some

1092
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:35,200
Skype issues and I'm hoping that that

1093
00:47:39,660 --> 00:47:37,089
will solve it you know perhaps yeah just

1094
00:47:41,250 --> 00:47:39,670
that's perfect right there that's fine

1095
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:41,260
so we'll go this we'll go this way a

1096
00:47:44,370 --> 00:47:43,359
while and see if if it doesn't sound any

1097
00:47:46,190 --> 00:47:44,380
better than you can turn your camera

1098
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:46,200
back on but we'll go this way for now

1099
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:49,599
yeah so let me just see if we have any

1100
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:53,170
questions up in in chat there's probably

1101
00:47:58,579 --> 00:47:55,690
some I'll have to scroll back now when

1102
00:48:03,150 --> 00:47:58,589
you're when you were doing this research

1103
00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:03,160
for the book what was the I guess what

1104
00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:04,990
I'd like to ask you is what was some of

1105
00:48:09,870 --> 00:48:06,550
the things you uncovered that you had no

1106
00:48:11,790 --> 00:48:09,880
idea about about hi Nick was anything

1107
00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:11,800
like that that you just said wow this is

1108
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:17,020
really interesting oh yeah there were

1109
00:48:21,450 --> 00:48:18,490
there were a number of moments like that

1110
00:48:22,890 --> 00:48:21,460
one of the first was I've already told

1111
00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:22,900
you the story of how I would visit the

1112
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:26,740
Koufos archives in Chicago and and dig

1113
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:29,680
into their files in their bookshelves so

1114
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:33,010
when I started officially working on the

1115
00:48:38,970 --> 00:48:35,290
book that was where I spent a lot of my

1116
00:48:41,370 --> 00:48:38,980
time eventually I started to visit the

1117
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:41,380
archives across town in Evanston

1118
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:43,810
Illinois at the Northwestern University

1119
00:48:47,609 --> 00:48:45,089
Library

1120
00:48:49,050 --> 00:48:47,619
Hynek had taught astronomy had been

1121
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,060
chairman of the Astronomy Department for

1122
00:48:53,010 --> 00:48:51,040
many years we had he had taught out

1123
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:53,020
there for almost a quarter of a century

1124
00:48:59,370 --> 00:48:54,430
very very long

1125
00:49:01,980 --> 00:48:59,380
and happy career there and northwestern

1126
00:49:05,549 --> 00:49:01,990
has a huge huge collection of hynek's

1127
00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:05,559
work papers in correspondence and news

1128
00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:07,990
clippings and all sorts of treasures so

1129
00:49:15,690 --> 00:49:11,500
the one of the first big surprises for

1130
00:49:17,730 --> 00:49:15,700
me was what an amazing career as an

1131
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:17,740
astronomer he had had and I discovered

1132
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:20,160
all of that at Northwestern University

1133
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:23,230
and then later on at the University of

1134
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:25,930
Chicago which is where high aniket had

1135
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:28,720
gone to college and gotten his doctorate

1136
00:49:34,260 --> 00:49:32,410
got his PhD in astronomy they also had a

1137
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:34,270
huge wonderful collection of Hynix

1138
00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:36,190
papers from his the very early years of

1139
00:49:43,470 --> 00:49:39,720
his career so between the you of Chicago

1140
00:49:45,089 --> 00:49:43,480
archives of his early years in the

1141
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:45,099
northwestern archives of his later years

1142
00:49:55,769 --> 00:49:48,640
I have developed this this amazing

1143
00:49:57,420 --> 00:49:55,779
picture of of a really of a fool II was

1144
00:50:00,960 --> 00:49:57,430
a pioneer in the field of celestial

1145
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:00,970
imaging I mentioned in the book at least

1146
00:50:06,510 --> 00:50:04,210
once that really without Hynek I don't

1147
00:50:08,430 --> 00:50:06,520
think we would have had that all the

1148
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:08,440
orbital telescopes we now have including

1149
00:50:14,279 --> 00:50:10,000
the Kepler telescope which is spotting

1150
00:50:16,589 --> 00:50:14,289
all these exoplanets Hynek was it was

1151
00:50:18,329 --> 00:50:16,599
wrecked inspiration for that kind of

1152
00:50:20,370 --> 00:50:18,339
technology he was quite an amazing guy

1153
00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:20,380
he never saw himself as a superstar

1154
00:50:25,789 --> 00:50:22,029
scientist and never really wanted to be

1155
00:50:28,740 --> 00:50:25,799
one but he had some pretty impressive

1156
00:50:30,779 --> 00:50:28,750
contributions to to science to astronomy

1157
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:30,789
so that was kind of the first big thing

1158
00:50:36,510 --> 00:50:34,000
the second big surprise was that he had

1159
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:36,520
this really interesting spiritual side

1160
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:38,770
he wasn't a religious guy at all his son

1161
00:50:42,779 --> 00:50:41,170
Paul told me he said we never had any

1162
00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:42,789
religion in our house we were very

1163
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:46,990
atypical in that regard but but in his

1164
00:50:51,569 --> 00:50:48,880
young years in high school in college he

1165
00:50:54,839 --> 00:50:51,579
had read a lot of writings of the

1166
00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:54,849
Rosicrucians and a spiritual leader

1167
00:51:01,980 --> 00:50:58,690
named Rudolf Steiner and Hynek was

1168
00:51:03,660 --> 00:51:01,990
really really interested in the topics

1169
00:51:06,809 --> 00:51:03,670
that they talked about and those

1170
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:06,819
included you know making contact with

1171
00:51:10,290 --> 00:51:08,110
the afterlife

1172
00:51:12,210 --> 00:51:10,300
Rudolf Steiner wrote about something he

1173
00:51:14,430 --> 00:51:12,220
called the supersensible realm which is

1174
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:14,440
really a fancy name for a parallel

1175
00:51:19,550 --> 00:51:16,930
dimension that he thought existed

1176
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:19,560
alongside ours and that we could enter

1177
00:51:23,550 --> 00:51:21,910
anytime we wanted to if we could train

1178
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:23,560
ourselves to those are the kinds of

1179
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:25,450
ideas that Hynek loved reading about as

1180
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:27,730
he was growing up and then later in life

1181
00:51:32,370 --> 00:51:30,130
when he was last year of his life or so

1182
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:32,380
when he was um after you've been

1183
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:34,090
diagnosed with brain cancer and he was

1184
00:51:39,210 --> 00:51:35,680
and he was in his last month's of his

1185
00:51:41,850 --> 00:51:39,220
life he returned to that spiritual side

1186
00:51:43,590 --> 00:51:41,860
of things again so that was the second

1187
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:43,600
big big surprise so you've got this guy

1188
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:46,240
who for me at the outset of this project

1189
00:51:50,610 --> 00:51:47,890
he was purely one-dimensional he was

1190
00:51:52,590 --> 00:51:50,620
this UFO guru well it turns out no he

1191
00:51:55,260 --> 00:51:52,600
was the UFO guy he was the astronomy guy

1192
00:51:58,650 --> 00:51:55,270
and then he was this spiritual guy who

1193
00:52:01,380 --> 00:51:58,660
really fascinated mazing yeah that is

1194
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:01,390
something and who knows he might be

1195
00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:04,210
right with the dimensions you never know

1196
00:52:09,690 --> 00:52:06,430
there's still a lot of the still a lot

1197
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:09,700
of speculation of that as far as what

1198
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:13,410
we're seeing in UFOs and other things

1199
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:15,490
absolutely and Hynek had a really great

1200
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:17,770
term for it he called it he called it in

1201
00:52:23,010 --> 00:52:20,770
meta terrestrial he was never he was

1202
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:23,020
never a real big backer of the

1203
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:25,690
extra-terrestrial hypothesis but he was

1204
00:52:32,670 --> 00:52:28,890
fascinated by the Mediterra hypothesis

1205
00:52:35,010 --> 00:52:32,680
another question that came up and I

1206
00:52:38,340 --> 00:52:35,020
think I know a little bit of this anyway

1207
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:38,350
do you know if J Allen Hynek had any

1208
00:52:42,180 --> 00:52:40,300
collaboration with Ray Stanford over the

1209
00:52:45,810 --> 00:52:42,190
Socorro case I know that he was there

1210
00:52:48,660 --> 00:52:45,820
and but I don't know much more about it

1211
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:48,670
then you know he did show up and he was

1212
00:52:55,020 --> 00:52:51,960
there and Ray met him there and all that

1213
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:55,030
yeah I did I did have a talk with Ray at

1214
00:53:00,720 --> 00:52:56,890
one point and Ray was kind enough to

1215
00:53:02,490 --> 00:53:00,730
send me his book oh yeah the Socorro

1216
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:02,500
saucer in the Pentagon yeah aintry I

1217
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:07,690
think that's the title and yeah it's he

1218
00:53:14,270 --> 00:53:09,610
was he was absolutely on site he was one

1219
00:53:17,970 --> 00:53:14,280
of the first people on site Socorro and

1220
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:17,980
and he was either Hynek or very close

1221
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:21,430
very nearby Hynek when Hynek was was

1222
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:23,770
they're investigating the event the

1223
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:26,559
impression I get from hynix taken and

1224
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:29,200
there's quite a bit of documentation on

1225
00:53:35,579 --> 00:53:33,250
the Socorro case the impression I get

1226
00:53:37,770 --> 00:53:35,589
just from from the blue project Bluebook

1227
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:37,780
file and for material that I found in

1228
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:41,890
hynek's archives was that he played he

1229
00:53:46,579 --> 00:53:43,450
was playing his cards pretty close to

1230
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:46,589
his vest I think he sensed immediately

1231
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:50,290
even before he arrived in New Mexico I

1232
00:53:56,370 --> 00:53:52,569
think Hynek was already thinking that

1233
00:53:58,319 --> 00:53:56,380
this case could be it was a physical

1234
00:54:00,900 --> 00:53:58,329
trace case it was a case that involved a

1235
00:54:03,150 --> 00:54:00,910
craft that apparently left behind

1236
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:03,160
landing pad imprints and had burned some

1237
00:54:08,190 --> 00:54:05,890
some shrubs on the ground mm-hmm those

1238
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:08,200
were hynek's favorite cases so I think I

1239
00:54:15,059 --> 00:54:12,490
think that Hynek kept a lot of what he

1240
00:54:18,210 --> 00:54:15,069
was thinking and seeing from mr.

1241
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:18,220
Stanford that's the impression I get I

1242
00:54:23,370 --> 00:54:20,290
don't really have any ironclad you know

1243
00:54:25,950 --> 00:54:23,380
documentation for that but my sand and

1244
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:25,960
it wasn't just mr. Sandford my

1245
00:54:31,799 --> 00:54:27,970
impression is a Hynek kept a lot of what

1246
00:54:33,569 --> 00:54:31,809
he was thinking about Socorro to himself

1247
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:33,579
until he could really figure it out

1248
00:54:39,210 --> 00:54:35,530
because it really was you know it was

1249
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:39,220
kind of a bombshell case it was the

1250
00:54:44,609 --> 00:54:42,400
witness was amazingly reliable

1251
00:54:48,030 --> 00:54:44,619
incredible it's a traffic cop who you

1252
00:54:50,579 --> 00:54:48,040
know right didn't smoke didn't drink you

1253
00:54:53,579 --> 00:54:50,589
know a very very credible witness a

1254
00:54:56,010 --> 00:54:53,589
close encounter of the Third Kind the

1255
00:54:58,260 --> 00:54:56,020
object was cited very close up

1256
00:55:02,039 --> 00:54:58,270
they were occupants it involved it was

1257
00:55:04,260 --> 00:55:02,049
it was a huge case so we yeah I think

1258
00:55:06,990 --> 00:55:04,270
Hynek um I think Hine it's just kind of

1259
00:55:10,380 --> 00:55:07,000
like I said close to his vest during

1260
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:10,390
that case because there was a lot going

1261
00:55:18,990 --> 00:55:13,650
on and I think he wanted to be very

1262
00:55:26,579 --> 00:55:19,000
careful about how he shared information

1263
00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:26,589
for me yeah are you able to hear me okay

1264
00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:28,569
yes I hope yeah we're having a bit of

1265
00:55:32,430 --> 00:55:30,670
are you have it can you tell on your

1266
00:55:33,839 --> 00:55:32,440
side I don't want to take up too much

1267
00:55:34,620 --> 00:55:33,849
time in this but are you having some

1268
00:55:38,569 --> 00:55:34,630
inner

1269
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:39,690
hmm

1270
00:55:45,329 --> 00:55:42,130
no everything looks good on my end

1271
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:45,339
alright so what I have I have had

1272
00:55:49,319 --> 00:55:46,930
internet troubles over the past few days

1273
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:49,329
though so I so there may be a problem

1274
00:55:54,210 --> 00:55:52,210
yeah okay I may have to have everything

1275
00:55:56,460 --> 00:55:54,220
looks great don't all right because you

1276
00:56:00,109 --> 00:55:56,470
are fading in now in and out quite a bit

1277
00:56:02,309 --> 00:56:00,119
and and I may have to switch to a

1278
00:56:05,370 --> 00:56:02,319
calling you on the phone if it keeps up

1279
00:56:07,740 --> 00:56:05,380
and in in that case I would like for you

1280
00:56:08,910 --> 00:56:07,750
to type in Skype message just type in

1281
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:08,920
your phone number and I'll give you a

1282
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:11,440
buzz back so I'll let you know as we go

1283
00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:18,400
along here sir and so the the case that

1284
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:20,920
someone asked this real early on in the

1285
00:56:28,230 --> 00:56:24,490
chat the case that changed doctor

1286
00:56:31,499 --> 00:56:28,240
hynek's mind from being someone that was

1287
00:56:33,299 --> 00:56:31,509
to debunk UFOs to someone that hey

1288
00:56:38,910 --> 00:56:33,309
there's really something to this how did

1289
00:56:41,339 --> 00:56:38,920
all that happen it didn't happen all at

1290
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:41,349
once I think that's that's a common

1291
00:56:46,460 --> 00:56:43,450
misconception that people have is that

1292
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:46,470
there was some kind of Eureka moment

1293
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:49,690
when when Hynek just suddenly saw the

1294
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:53,410
world differently and he completely

1295
00:56:57,359 --> 00:56:55,690
changed his mind if I was it was really

1296
00:57:01,349 --> 00:56:57,369
a gradual something and it began

1297
00:57:03,269 --> 00:57:01,359
surprisingly as early as 1952 back when

1298
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:03,279
this was all still very very new you got

1299
00:57:07,349 --> 00:57:05,440
better remember the the Kenneth Arnold

1300
00:57:13,249 --> 00:57:07,359
sighting had taken place in the summer

1301
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:13,259
of 1947 so 1952 oh five years into this

1302
00:57:18,690 --> 00:57:17,200
Hynek is starting to sort of waver as I

1303
00:57:21,299 --> 00:57:18,700
mentioned earlier when he first started

1304
00:57:23,700 --> 00:57:21,309
out with this he thought it was a fad he

1305
00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:23,710
thought it would die out very quickly he

1306
00:57:30,089 --> 00:57:26,079
kind of made fun of it and made fun of

1307
00:57:34,980 --> 00:57:30,099
the people who had spot the D UFOs but

1308
00:57:36,779 --> 00:57:34,990
after five years the Air Force calls him

1309
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,789
back and says hey we still this Hynek

1310
00:57:41,849 --> 00:57:38,079
had left their employ for a couple of

1311
00:57:44,220 --> 00:57:41,859
years so he comes back in 1952 and he

1312
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:44,230
realizes hey not only has this fad not

1313
00:57:53,039 --> 00:57:48,640
burned itself out but there's a

1314
00:57:55,019 --> 00:57:53,049
remarkable consistency here here go back

1315
00:57:57,210 --> 00:57:55,029
if he if he went back over the previous

1316
00:58:00,650 --> 00:57:57,220
five years of UFO reports that the Air

1317
00:58:03,870 --> 00:58:00,660
Force had amassed there was a very clear

1318
00:58:04,289 --> 00:58:03,880
20% residue of cases that nobody could

1319
00:58:13,099 --> 00:58:04,299
explain

1320
00:58:16,019 --> 00:58:13,109
sort of hung there defi I mean

1321
00:58:19,289 --> 00:58:16,029
explanation and puzzle and so when Hynek

1322
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:19,299
saw that consistent pattern of 20% year

1323
00:58:25,049 --> 00:58:22,000
after year that's when he started to

1324
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:25,059
think okay maybe there's some thing that

1325
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:26,410
I need to be paying attention to here

1326
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:28,450
maybe I should start looking at things

1327
00:58:33,599 --> 00:58:31,210
differently so that was the start of the

1328
00:58:38,849 --> 00:58:33,609
process it honestly did that prep but

1329
00:58:41,609 --> 00:58:38,859
says was really complete until 14:6 in

1330
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:41,619
Michigan at the the famous fabulous

1331
00:58:47,809 --> 00:58:45,130
swamp gas case the the Dexter Hills Elsa

1332
00:58:50,759 --> 00:58:47,819
in southern Michigan so it was a it was

1333
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,769
really a 14-year process from Hynek

1334
00:58:55,490 --> 00:58:52,720
first starting to sort of have some

1335
00:58:58,769 --> 00:58:55,500
doubts about what he was doing until he

1336
00:59:00,240 --> 00:58:58,779
you know finally reached a point where

1337
00:59:01,589 --> 00:59:00,250
he decided okay you but I'm gonna fool

1338
00:59:03,269 --> 00:59:01,599
around anymore I'm not gonna I'm not

1339
00:59:05,220 --> 00:59:03,279
gonna carry water for the airforce

1340
00:59:08,490 --> 00:59:05,230
anymore I'm gonna start approaching this

1341
00:59:11,999 --> 00:59:08,500
as a scientific problem Wow interesting

1342
00:59:15,690 --> 00:59:12,009
do you know if he ever had a chance to

1343
00:59:19,289 --> 00:59:15,700
meet Betty and Barney Hill yes he did

1344
00:59:21,509 --> 00:59:19,299
yeah yeah he um yeah in fact that boy

1345
00:59:26,130 --> 00:59:21,519
that was that was such a busy time

1346
00:59:30,749 --> 00:59:26,140
because so Barney and Betty Hills UFO

1347
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:30,759
abduction took place in 1961 but by the

1348
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:33,730
time I'm but by the time the hills had

1349
00:59:40,829 --> 00:59:37,690
gone through all the physical maladies

1350
00:59:41,730 --> 00:59:40,839
all their psychological issues resulting

1351
00:59:44,819 --> 00:59:41,740
from that sighting

1352
00:59:47,849 --> 00:59:44,829
which they could not remember by the

1353
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:47,859
time they ended up going under time

1354
00:59:51,269 --> 00:59:49,450
regression hypnosis to remember what had

1355
00:59:55,279 --> 00:59:51,279
happened to them in the two missing

1356
01:00:01,019 --> 00:59:59,730
we're getting into the 1964 1965 this is

1357
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:01,029
right around the time of the Socorro

1358
01:00:07,290 --> 01:00:02,050
case that we were just

1359
01:00:10,070 --> 01:00:07,300
the Socorro New Mexico case so UF there

1360
01:00:14,580 --> 01:00:10,080
are there are some really high-profile

1361
01:00:16,590 --> 01:00:14,590
really remarkable and explainable UFO

1362
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:16,600
cases going on that have really

1363
01:00:22,980 --> 01:00:18,730
captivated the American public in the

1364
01:00:25,380 --> 01:00:22,990
mid in the mid 1960s so Hynek ends up

1365
01:00:26,700 --> 01:00:25,390
meeting Barney and Betty hill in that

1366
01:00:32,010 --> 01:00:26,710
later time frame I can't remember

1367
01:00:34,410 --> 01:00:32,020
exactly 64 65 at the behest of John

1368
01:00:37,710 --> 01:00:34,420
Fuller who had just written you know two

1369
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:37,720
of the hands down the UFO books ever

1370
01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:39,850
incident at Exeter and the interim the

1371
01:00:44,220 --> 01:00:41,710
journey you know interrupted journey was

1372
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:44,230
all about Barney and Betty's abduction

1373
01:00:50,580 --> 01:00:48,400
so fuller invites dr. Hynek to have

1374
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:50,590
dinner with him and doctor her sight but

1375
01:00:56,010 --> 01:00:53,530
dr. Benjamin Simon who had performed the

1376
01:00:57,870 --> 01:00:56,020
time regression hypnosis and Barney and

1377
01:01:00,840 --> 01:00:57,880
Betty Hiller there too so hynek's at

1378
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:00,850
this amazing dinner party with John

1379
01:01:08,490 --> 01:01:02,950
fuller Benjamin Simon Barney Hill Betty

1380
01:01:12,330 --> 01:01:08,500
hill and the hills agree to go under

1381
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:12,340
hypnosis while dr. Hynek is there while

1382
01:01:18,660 --> 01:01:16,690
he's there really so so dr. Simon he's

1383
01:01:23,900 --> 01:01:18,670
there yeah this is there this is there

1384
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:23,910
like after-dinner entertainment so so

1385
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:26,650
yeah so the hills the hills both go

1386
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:29,170
under hypnosis and dr. Hynek has a

1387
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:32,160
chance to question them that's amazing

1388
01:01:40,860 --> 01:01:36,250
it sized and he was he was greatly

1389
01:01:43,380 --> 01:01:40,870
impressed because when he was talking to

1390
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:43,390
Barney Hill when he got to the part of

1391
01:01:49,020 --> 01:01:46,690
the story where the strange funny men

1392
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:49,030
approached their car on this lonely road

1393
01:01:58,500 --> 01:01:56,410
and take them out of the car and when he

1394
01:02:01,560 --> 01:01:58,510
got to that part of the story Barney

1395
01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:01,570
Hill just freaked out he was so

1396
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:03,880
terrified he just could not keep going

1397
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:07,450
with the story and I don't know a whole

1398
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:09,370
lot about hypnosis but what I have

1399
01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:12,310
learned from writing this book is that

1400
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:15,910
that kind of that kind of primal

1401
01:02:22,529 --> 01:02:19,510
terror is impossible to fake under

1402
01:02:27,299 --> 01:02:22,539
hypnosis that that is the general

1403
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:27,309
opinion of experts on this and Hynek was

1404
01:02:37,170 --> 01:02:33,130
very very much impressed by but Marnie

1405
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:37,180
Hill displayed when he when he was asked

1406
01:02:43,020 --> 01:02:40,000
to relive that reads so he came away

1407
01:02:44,730 --> 01:02:43,030
thinking and he and he freely admitted

1408
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:44,740
he did not think much of the Barney and

1409
01:02:49,740 --> 01:02:46,930
Betty Hill abduction case leading up to

1410
01:02:52,890 --> 01:02:49,750
that meeting but after meeting the hills

1411
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:52,900
and d'etat and questioning them under

1412
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:55,359
hypnosis he came away very impressed but

1413
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,770
here's the interesting thing about about

1414
01:03:01,049 --> 01:02:58,720
it Martin because Hynek was such a

1415
01:03:02,819 --> 01:03:01,059
scientist and tried so hard to apply

1416
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:02,829
scientific method to this to the study

1417
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:08,799
of UFOs his his stumbling block with

1418
01:03:13,470 --> 01:03:11,410
with the book Barney and Betty Hill the

1419
01:03:15,420 --> 01:03:13,480
case even at this point when he after he

1420
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:15,430
had questioned them his stumbling block

1421
01:03:21,569 --> 01:03:18,690
was not that he thought their story was

1422
01:03:23,549 --> 01:03:21,579
impossible to believe it was the problem

1423
01:03:26,940 --> 01:03:23,559
was that there were no other stories

1424
01:03:29,870 --> 01:03:26,950
like it as a scientist high-necked liked

1425
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:29,880
to have repeatable results

1426
01:03:35,460 --> 01:03:33,130
he liked to have patterns and

1427
01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:35,470
consistency and there was nothing

1428
01:03:39,779 --> 01:03:37,569
available that would give him that sort

1429
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:39,789
of level of assurance with Barney and

1430
01:03:44,910 --> 01:03:42,490
Betty Hill because nobody on earth that

1431
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:44,920
we know of had ever experienced anything

1432
01:03:51,870 --> 01:03:48,010
like that so so he was greatly impressed

1433
01:03:53,910 --> 01:03:51,880
with it so my long answer is he who was

1434
01:03:55,349 --> 01:03:53,920
really impressed with the hill story but

1435
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:55,359
because he couldn't fit it into any

1436
01:03:59,760 --> 01:03:57,730
pattern he honestly didn't know where to

1437
01:04:03,960 --> 01:03:59,770
go with it he didn't know how to explain

1438
01:04:06,210 --> 01:04:03,970
well so 1975 comes along and then you

1439
01:04:09,839 --> 01:04:06,220
get Travis Walton his incident in

1440
01:04:14,069 --> 01:04:09,849
November 1976 comes along you get the

1441
01:04:16,289 --> 01:04:14,079
allagash abduction and then I'm trying

1442
01:04:21,690 --> 01:04:16,299
to remember when the pass a passing

1443
01:04:24,329 --> 01:04:21,700
McCullough case happened that was up so

1444
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:24,339
all these things were happening did do

1445
01:04:32,059 --> 01:04:27,250
you know if he had interest in any in

1446
01:04:39,599 --> 01:04:34,559
now yeah well definitely the Pascagoula

1447
01:04:41,099 --> 01:04:39,609
case well okay I guess I can address

1448
01:04:45,809 --> 01:04:41,109
this a couple of ways the Pascagoula

1449
01:04:49,319 --> 01:04:45,819
case took place just after Hynek had

1450
01:04:52,650 --> 01:04:49,329
returned from a trip around the world in

1451
01:04:54,839 --> 01:04:52,660
which she had gone to Australia and

1452
01:04:59,160 --> 01:04:54,849
Papua New Guinea to interview the

1453
01:05:01,170 --> 01:04:59,170
witnesses of the 1959 Fothergill close

1454
01:05:02,460 --> 01:05:01,180
encounter of the third kind case so we

1455
01:05:04,170 --> 01:05:02,470
have to include that case in though I

1456
01:05:06,870 --> 01:05:04,180
love that case though just for

1457
01:05:10,500 --> 01:05:06,880
background oh it's a marvelous story so

1458
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:10,510
1959 in this very remote village in

1459
01:05:16,410 --> 01:05:12,910
Papua New Guinea an Anglican minister

1460
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:16,420
named William Gill is is I can't

1461
01:05:20,490 --> 01:05:17,680
remember exactly how it started out who

1462
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:20,500
saw it first but he finds himself out on

1463
01:05:24,809 --> 01:05:22,240
the beach outside his mission with

1464
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:24,819
several dozen of the villagers and

1465
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:27,010
several people from his own staff at the

1466
01:05:34,829 --> 01:05:32,410
mission washing these strange glowing

1467
01:05:36,779 --> 01:05:34,839
objects in this over the ocean I mean

1468
01:05:38,970 --> 01:05:36,789
not far over the ocean very close to the

1469
01:05:40,769 --> 01:05:38,980
beach where they were standing and on

1470
01:05:44,370 --> 01:05:40,779
the largest of the objects it's a

1471
01:05:46,740 --> 01:05:44,380
gigantic disk and it's glowing blue it

1472
01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:46,750
has four legs sticking out of the bottom

1473
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:49,089
and out of the top is a ray of blue

1474
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:52,240
light that shoots off into the sky and

1475
01:05:56,220 --> 01:05:54,730
then the top of this saucer is what

1476
01:05:58,829 --> 01:05:56,230
appears to be a deck with a railing

1477
01:06:02,569 --> 01:05:58,839
around it and there are a number of

1478
01:06:06,380 --> 01:06:02,579
figures sometimes three sometimes four

1479
01:06:08,339 --> 01:06:06,390
dark figures seen on top of this saucer

1480
01:06:09,630 --> 01:06:08,349
apparently working on something that's

1481
01:06:11,579 --> 01:06:09,640
hidden from view from the people on the

1482
01:06:14,210 --> 01:06:11,589
beach what's really odd about these

1483
01:06:16,620 --> 01:06:14,220
figures though is that they seem

1484
01:06:20,099 --> 01:06:16,630
exceptionally tall at least seven feet

1485
01:06:22,140 --> 01:06:20,109
tall or more and they are surrounded by

1486
01:06:24,450 --> 01:06:22,150
a blue glow this the there's a blue glow

1487
01:06:28,849 --> 01:06:24,460
surrounding the disc and that blue glow

1488
01:06:31,140 --> 01:06:28,859
also surrounds these these figures so

1489
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:31,150
father Gill has no idea what to make of

1490
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:32,799
it but of course he jumps to the

1491
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:34,930
simplest conclusion he thinks so this

1492
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:38,710
must be some test vehicle that the

1493
01:06:42,930 --> 01:06:41,410
Americans are working on and they're

1494
01:06:47,130 --> 01:06:42,940
testing it in this remote area

1495
01:06:49,410 --> 01:06:47,140
just to see you know just to see yeah

1496
01:06:53,460 --> 01:06:49,420
well the very next night the same thing

1497
01:06:55,230 --> 01:06:53,470
happens these same in the sky I the same

1498
01:06:57,450 --> 01:06:55,240
disc is present with these with these

1499
01:06:59,339 --> 01:06:57,460
figures working on something on the top

1500
01:07:01,260 --> 01:06:59,349
deck of the disc well this time

1501
01:07:03,359 --> 01:07:01,270
Fothergill and the other people with him

1502
01:07:05,910 --> 01:07:03,369
they're not so sure it's the Americans

1503
01:07:08,630 --> 01:07:05,920
this time there's something extremely

1504
01:07:13,770 --> 01:07:08,640
weird about what they're watching and

1505
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:13,780
Fothergill waves his arm at the figures

1506
01:07:19,380 --> 01:07:15,910
up above this craft and one of the

1507
01:07:20,910 --> 01:07:19,390
figures waves back well they start

1508
01:07:24,809 --> 01:07:20,920
waving back and forth Fothergill and one

1509
01:07:26,490 --> 01:07:24,819
of his assistants well more of the

1510
01:07:28,380 --> 01:07:26,500
aliens start waving back the humans on

1511
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:28,390
on the beach start waving with both arms

1512
01:07:31,230 --> 01:07:29,050
overhead

1513
01:07:34,370 --> 01:07:31,240
and the figures on the disk wave back

1514
01:07:37,530 --> 01:07:34,380
with both arms so there's absolutely

1515
01:07:39,180 --> 01:07:37,540
communication going on right there's

1516
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:39,190
communication going on between the

1517
01:07:44,030 --> 01:07:41,410
witnesses on the beach and these strange

1518
01:07:46,530 --> 01:07:44,040
glowing figures on this on this disc

1519
01:07:48,210 --> 01:07:46,540
well one of the people pulls out a

1520
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:48,220
flashlight and flashes it at the disc

1521
01:07:52,770 --> 01:07:50,170
and the disc sort of rocks from side to

1522
01:07:55,260 --> 01:07:52,780
side and then it approached just the

1523
01:07:57,859 --> 01:07:55,270
humans on the beach and you'd think they

1524
01:07:59,910 --> 01:07:57,869
would be scared to death but they're not

1525
01:08:02,609 --> 01:07:59,920
strangely enough the humans on the beach

1526
01:08:03,900 --> 01:08:02,619
are excited because oh well good but

1527
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:03,910
finally we're gonna find out who these

1528
01:08:07,290 --> 01:08:05,290
people are and what they're doing here

1529
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:07,300
but then the disc doesn't come any

1530
01:08:11,460 --> 01:08:09,250
closer it stops and doesn't come any

1531
01:08:13,710 --> 01:08:11,470
closer so everyone's disappointed and

1532
01:08:15,450 --> 01:08:13,720
and so that's the there's there are more

1533
01:08:17,249 --> 01:08:15,460
details to the story but but that's

1534
01:08:22,410 --> 01:08:17,259
really the heart of the story took place

1535
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:22,420
in 1959 well 1973 dr. Hynek finally gets

1536
01:08:27,269 --> 01:08:24,370
a chance to visit Australia and Papua

1537
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:27,279
New Guinea he meets dr. Gil he meets

1538
01:08:30,769 --> 01:08:28,719
several of the residents of the village

1539
01:08:35,189 --> 01:08:30,779
who were also witnesses that night and

1540
01:08:38,039 --> 01:08:35,199
he comes away very impressed by the

1541
01:08:40,289 --> 01:08:38,049
witnesses he says father father Gil is

1542
01:08:41,579 --> 01:08:40,299
you know he's kind of a dream witness

1543
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:41,589
he's not a guy who's takes two flights

1544
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:44,290
of fancy he says what he says what he

1545
01:08:49,860 --> 01:08:47,770
means and he means what he says so Hynek

1546
01:08:52,709 --> 01:08:49,870
is coming back from this trip thinking

1547
01:08:54,660 --> 01:08:52,719
what well you know maybe i need to more

1548
01:08:56,250 --> 01:08:54,670
me or be more open-minded about these

1549
01:08:58,140 --> 01:08:56,260
occupant cases

1550
01:09:00,180 --> 01:08:58,150
no sooner does he get back home in the

1551
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:00,190
in the United States then this

1552
01:09:03,690 --> 01:09:02,050
pascagoula abduction takes place in

1553
01:09:06,780 --> 01:09:03,700
Mississippi with these two fishermen

1554
01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:06,790
Charlie Hickson and Calvin Parker who

1555
01:09:11,670 --> 01:09:09,030
were out fishing one night on appear and

1556
01:09:15,710 --> 01:09:11,680
they get taken aboard this glowing blue

1557
01:09:19,020 --> 01:09:15,720
edge craft by these three strange

1558
01:09:20,970 --> 01:09:19,030
seemingly robotic creatures who examine

1559
01:09:24,450 --> 01:09:20,980
them and then deposit them back on the

1560
01:09:26,250 --> 01:09:24,460
pier before their craft disappears so at

1561
01:09:29,190 --> 01:09:26,260
this point Hynek has already been

1562
01:09:32,340 --> 01:09:29,200
retained by NBC News to help develop a

1563
01:09:36,410 --> 01:09:32,350
news special from the UFO phenomenon so

1564
01:09:39,330 --> 01:09:36,420
NBC actually sends dr. Nick down to

1565
01:09:41,700 --> 01:09:39,340
Mississippi to interview these two guys

1566
01:09:44,730 --> 01:09:41,710
and just like with Barney and Betty Hill

1567
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:44,740
Hynek is present when a hypnotist Akaya

1568
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:47,730
triste attempts to put the two witnesses

1569
01:09:54,750 --> 01:09:52,570
under hypnosis and it just doesn't work

1570
01:09:57,450 --> 01:09:54,760
the two men are too terrified to relive

1571
01:09:59,060 --> 01:09:57,460
their experience so once again Hynek

1572
01:10:03,420 --> 01:09:59,070
comes out of this hypnosis section

1573
01:10:06,570 --> 01:10:03,430
session believing that Wow

1574
01:10:07,590 --> 01:10:06,580
I believe that these people experienced

1575
01:10:10,170 --> 01:10:07,600
something real

1576
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:10,180
I can't say what the nature of this

1577
01:10:15,450 --> 01:10:13,330
event was but I do believe that

1578
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:15,460
something real happened to these people

1579
01:10:19,050 --> 01:10:17,410
and there's a lot of evidence to back

1580
01:10:22,830 --> 01:10:19,060
that up did the two men these two

1581
01:10:25,820 --> 01:10:22,840
fishermen they they will only one of

1582
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:25,830
them underwent a polygraph test because

1583
01:10:32,220 --> 01:10:29,650
Calvin Parker unfortunately was was

1584
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:32,230
institutionalized he had he had a mental

1585
01:10:36,210 --> 01:10:35,050
breakdown shortly after the event so the

1586
01:10:39,150 --> 01:10:36,220
older of the two Charles Hickson

1587
01:10:40,740 --> 01:10:39,160
undergoes a polygraph - yes and the

1588
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:40,750
polygraph operator says you know what

1589
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:43,930
I'm not saying he saw a spaceship but

1590
01:10:47,070 --> 01:10:46,480
when he says he saw a spaceship he's not

1591
01:10:51,060 --> 01:10:47,080
lying

1592
01:10:52,350 --> 01:10:51,070
so you know this was a again a very very

1593
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:52,360
credible case with very credible

1594
01:10:59,340 --> 01:10:56,890
witnesses so huge huge effect and

1595
01:11:01,530 --> 01:10:59,350
hynek's thinking as I said Hynek it was

1596
01:11:03,660 --> 01:11:01,540
always uncomfortable with these occupant

1597
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:03,670
cases but the Fothergill case and the

1598
01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:06,130
Pascagoula tazed case really challenged

1599
01:11:09,989 --> 01:11:08,590
his thinking you know and he was he was

1600
01:11:12,180 --> 01:11:09,999
an honest enough guy

1601
01:11:15,919 --> 01:11:12,190
he was intellectual intellectually

1602
01:11:19,259 --> 01:11:15,929
honest enough that he would he would

1603
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:19,269
consider alternative explanations to

1604
01:11:24,299 --> 01:11:21,489
things that he might have you know he

1605
01:11:27,750 --> 01:11:24,309
might have taken in the past so you also

1606
01:11:29,729 --> 01:11:27,760
mentioned the Travis Walton case that

1607
01:11:32,819 --> 01:11:29,739
was a little more problematic I I was

1608
01:11:35,370 --> 01:11:32,829
very very lucky to get a get a hold of a

1609
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:35,380
couple of audio recordings through the

1610
01:11:38,669 --> 01:11:37,449
courtesy of Michael sorts in California

1611
01:11:41,959 --> 01:11:38,679
Michigan who was like one of the great

1612
01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:41,969
unsung heroes of ufology in my opinion

1613
01:11:46,109 --> 01:11:43,809
Michael gave me access to a whole bunch

1614
01:11:50,250 --> 01:11:46,119
of audio files he had well one of them

1615
01:11:55,169 --> 01:11:50,260
is a speech that dr. Hynek gave to

1616
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:55,179
believe it or not a hip it's just it's

1617
01:11:58,890 --> 01:11:57,489
convention around 1980 he's talking

1618
01:12:00,270 --> 01:11:58,900
about the Travis Walton case which took

1619
01:12:03,180 --> 01:12:00,280
place in 1975

1620
01:12:05,729 --> 01:12:03,190
again a UFO abduction in Arizona with

1621
01:12:08,279 --> 01:12:05,739
this young man Travis Walton disappeared

1622
01:12:10,739 --> 01:12:08,289
for four and a half days after being

1623
01:12:14,100 --> 01:12:10,749
zapped by a UFO that he and his friends

1624
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:14,110
saw in the woods so Hynek is giving this

1625
01:12:19,589 --> 01:12:17,920
and this is what I the basis this talk

1626
01:12:21,839 --> 01:12:19,599
behind it gave to the hypnosis was the

1627
01:12:23,850 --> 01:12:21,849
basis of of my analysis of the Walton

1628
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:23,860
case in my book and I think just

1629
01:12:30,390 --> 01:12:27,280
basically said he had some doubts about

1630
01:12:33,509 --> 01:12:30,400
the story and the problem for him was

1631
01:12:35,729 --> 01:12:33,519
one of the problems was then when Travis

1632
01:12:37,859 --> 01:12:35,739
Walton was under hypnosis and again

1633
01:12:42,660 --> 01:12:37,869
Hynek was there when he was under

1634
01:12:44,009 --> 01:12:42,670
hypnosis he said that mr. Walton didn't

1635
01:12:45,660 --> 01:12:44,019
remember anything new under hypnosis

1636
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:45,670
that he hadn't already remembered

1637
01:12:50,839 --> 01:12:48,130
consciously so for Hynek that was just

1638
01:12:54,629 --> 01:12:50,849
kind of it didn't mean that Walton was

1639
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:54,639
lying or fabricating things or imagining

1640
01:12:58,859 --> 01:12:57,280
any things it just meant that it was a

1641
01:13:00,299 --> 01:12:58,869
dead end as far as dr. Hynek was

1642
01:13:04,529 --> 01:13:00,309
concerned he couldn't really go any

1643
01:13:06,149 --> 01:13:04,539
further with it so you know so that was

1644
01:13:10,229 --> 01:13:06,159
one case where Hynek wasn't necessarily

1645
01:13:13,169 --> 01:13:10,239
sold on on the story but i think i can i

1646
01:13:16,049 --> 01:13:13,179
can easily state that over time i'm he

1647
01:13:18,419 --> 01:13:16,059
became much more open-minded about

1648
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:18,429
occupant cases and abduction cases yeah

1649
01:13:23,819 --> 01:13:21,489
yeah what about the missing time aspect

1650
01:13:25,469 --> 01:13:23,829
of of the

1651
01:13:32,459 --> 01:13:25,479
you hear all the time did he ever have

1652
01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:32,469
any interest in that well in way he did

1653
01:13:37,979 --> 01:13:34,510
yes I think that I think missing time

1654
01:13:42,089 --> 01:13:37,989
things were asked they were aspects of

1655
01:13:43,409 --> 01:13:42,099
UFO reports that in the early days he

1656
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:43,419
would have had troubles with but in the

1657
01:13:50,009 --> 01:13:47,010
later days of his career when he was

1658
01:13:52,619 --> 01:13:50,019
open speculating about parallel

1659
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:52,629
dimensions suddenly ideas it's like

1660
01:13:57,779 --> 01:13:54,489
missing time were not nearly so strange

1661
01:14:01,109 --> 01:13:57,789
or threatening just some too too high so

1662
01:14:05,790 --> 01:14:01,119
I it's them I think missing time

1663
01:14:09,299 --> 01:14:05,800
episodes have helped him readjust his

1664
01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:09,309
thinking to think of UFO and this this

1665
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:13,209
may be a shocker but he really literally

1666
01:14:19,290 --> 01:14:16,320
started thinking of UFO events as

1667
01:14:20,759 --> 01:14:19,300
partially psychological events that

1668
01:14:23,759 --> 01:14:20,769
doesn't mean he thought that people were

1669
01:14:24,629 --> 01:14:23,769
just making things up or diluted or were

1670
01:14:28,129 --> 01:14:24,639
you know suffering from hallucinations

1671
01:14:30,750 --> 01:14:28,139
or delusions what he meant by that was

1672
01:14:35,189 --> 01:14:30,760
because so many UFO encounters seemed to

1673
01:14:39,060 --> 01:14:35,199
have mystical aspects but also seem to

1674
01:14:41,429 --> 01:14:39,070
have distinctly unphysical aspects he

1675
01:14:45,719 --> 01:14:41,439
started to wonder if part of the

1676
01:14:48,629 --> 01:14:45,729
experience was was taking place in the

1677
01:14:49,770 --> 01:14:48,639
witness's mind and that's not just again

1678
01:14:53,699 --> 01:14:49,780
that's not to say that they were

1679
01:14:55,319 --> 01:14:53,709
fabricating it or imagining it or that

1680
01:14:57,869 --> 01:14:55,329
their sensor or that their scent

1681
01:15:01,409 --> 01:14:57,879
sensations were in any way suspect he

1682
01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:01,419
was actually considering that this real

1683
01:15:07,589 --> 01:15:04,510
experience was taking place partly in

1684
01:15:09,119 --> 01:15:07,599
the physical world and partly the

1685
01:15:11,929 --> 01:15:09,129
psychological world and that the

1686
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:11,939
witnesses were experiencing it both ways

1687
01:15:17,549 --> 01:15:15,249
and if you think of it the way that kind

1688
01:15:20,549 --> 01:15:17,559
of makes sense because flames why it's

1689
01:15:22,619 --> 01:15:20,559
often so difficult for a UFO witness

1690
01:15:25,649 --> 01:15:22,629
who's undergone early extreme experience

1691
01:15:27,779 --> 01:15:25,659
has can have such a hard time explaining

1692
01:15:29,819 --> 01:15:27,789
and describing what happened to them if

1693
01:15:31,859 --> 01:15:29,829
it's something that's partially physical

1694
01:15:33,509 --> 01:15:31,869
and partially psychological how do you

1695
01:15:35,849 --> 01:15:33,519
get a grip on that how do you explain it

1696
01:15:37,500 --> 01:15:35,859
how do you describe it that's that's

1697
01:15:39,990 --> 01:15:37,510
where hynix thinking went towards the

1698
01:15:40,979 --> 01:15:40,000
so I think that's and for me that's one

1699
01:15:43,819 --> 01:15:40,989
of the most exciting and fascinating

1700
01:15:47,129 --> 01:15:43,829
parts of his career was when he started

1701
01:15:49,770 --> 01:15:47,139
to look at things how about that now so

1702
01:15:52,709 --> 01:15:49,780
Rendlesham forest happened a few I mean

1703
01:15:54,689 --> 01:15:52,719
was actually came out a few years you

1704
01:15:58,470 --> 01:15:54,699
know ahead of his death

1705
01:16:01,709 --> 01:15:58,480
was he did he look into that at all or

1706
01:16:07,410 --> 01:16:01,719
was he was he like retired and out of

1707
01:16:10,709 --> 01:16:07,420
sight at that time well he was never

1708
01:16:12,810 --> 01:16:10,719
really retired at out of sight even

1709
01:16:15,779 --> 01:16:12,820
after he moved to Arizona I never came

1710
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:15,789
across much of anything maybe not

1711
01:16:21,649 --> 01:16:18,250
anything now that I think about it where

1712
01:16:23,759 --> 01:16:21,659
he would have given any thought or or

1713
01:16:25,589 --> 01:16:23,769
consideration to Rendlesham that's not

1714
01:16:27,689 --> 01:16:25,599
to say that he didn't because there's

1715
01:16:29,879 --> 01:16:27,699
actually there's a whole there's a vast

1716
01:16:32,279 --> 01:16:29,889
and I would encourage anybody to look

1717
01:16:34,770 --> 01:16:32,289
into this the Center for UFO studies in

1718
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:34,780
Chicago still it still exists and you

1719
01:16:40,979 --> 01:16:36,730
can still go to their website Koufos

1720
01:16:44,310 --> 01:16:40,989
comm and you can I'm pretty sure you can

1721
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:44,320
still order the complete library of KU

1722
01:16:49,649 --> 01:16:48,130
Phocis newsletter the international UFO

1723
01:16:50,250 --> 01:16:49,659
reporter which was published for many

1724
01:16:52,950 --> 01:16:50,260
many years

1725
01:16:55,379 --> 01:16:52,960
J Allen Hynek was the editor of I you

1726
01:16:57,450 --> 01:16:55,389
are for many of those years and he

1727
01:17:00,000 --> 01:16:57,460
contributed many many articles many many

1728
01:17:04,229 --> 01:17:00,010
research articles and opinion articles

1729
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:04,239
to that publication and I can tell you

1730
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:07,530
it's such a huge huge huge collection of

1731
01:17:13,589 --> 01:17:10,570
UFO reporting that I have not even come

1732
01:17:15,209 --> 01:17:13,599
close to going through all of it so I am

1733
01:17:16,979 --> 01:17:15,219
gonna I'm gonna give myself a little

1734
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:16,989
wiggle room here and say that there may

1735
01:17:23,069 --> 01:17:21,130
be some writings or think key things

1736
01:17:24,569 --> 01:17:23,079
about Rendlesham that Hynek may have

1737
01:17:28,350 --> 01:17:24,579
taken up in one of his columns and I you

1738
01:17:30,450 --> 01:17:28,360
are but but it's not something that I

1739
01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:30,460
ever found or writ US that's kind of my

1740
01:17:37,529 --> 01:17:35,380
lame response what do you I wish I could

1741
01:17:38,850 --> 01:17:37,539
be more specific with it like yeah yeah

1742
01:17:41,790 --> 01:17:38,860
there's no problem

1743
01:17:43,470 --> 01:17:41,800
we actually if anyone does want to call

1744
01:17:46,020 --> 01:17:43,480
in that's listening live or you're

1745
01:17:48,660 --> 01:17:46,030
welcome to call in I think we have our

1746
01:17:51,060 --> 01:17:48,670
we had a Skype issue and it I think it

1747
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:51,070
might be fixed so

1748
01:17:55,140 --> 01:17:53,170
if someone wants to call in as a guinea

1749
01:17:59,730 --> 01:17:55,150
pig and see if we can join you to the

1750
01:18:02,100 --> 01:17:59,740
call you're welcome to call 603 967 403

1751
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:02,110
o if you're calling from another country

1752
01:18:10,170 --> 01:18:07,570
it's 1 so 1 603 967 403 o or you can

1753
01:18:17,070 --> 01:18:10,180
Skype in at Mardi willis that's ma RT y

1754
01:18:19,770 --> 01:18:17,080
wi ll is so there was one other question

1755
01:18:22,140 --> 01:18:19,780
i just wanted to get to before i forgot

1756
01:18:25,050 --> 01:18:22,150
because i want to ask more about the

1757
01:18:26,610 --> 01:18:25,060
Close Encounters of the Third Kind that

1758
01:18:30,450 --> 01:18:26,620
is coming up with the 40th anniversary

1759
01:18:32,430 --> 01:18:30,460
we can re-release real soon

1760
01:18:34,380 --> 01:18:32,440
do you think of the question in the form

1761
01:18:36,750 --> 01:18:34,390
is do you think the film will influence

1762
01:18:41,910 --> 01:18:36,760
a new generation in interest in the UFO

1763
01:18:44,580 --> 01:18:41,920
subject I sure hope so and I think and I

1764
01:18:50,990 --> 01:18:44,590
think it works both ways I think that I

1765
01:18:56,460 --> 01:18:53,520
going on right now just from you know

1766
01:18:58,680 --> 01:18:56,470
the return of the x-files and you know

1767
01:19:00,480 --> 01:18:58,690
then the numerous cable TV shows dealing

1768
01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:00,490
what with UFO is one way or another I

1769
01:19:07,410 --> 01:19:03,910
think there's already a hunger and a

1770
01:19:09,690 --> 01:19:07,420
demand for more and better UFO

1771
01:19:12,900 --> 01:19:09,700
information so I think that there's an

1772
01:19:15,230 --> 01:19:12,910
audience ready yes I think the audience

1773
01:19:17,730 --> 01:19:15,240
will be influenced by seeing the movie

1774
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:17,740
many of them for the first time but I

1775
01:19:22,820 --> 01:19:19,210
also think that audience is already kind

1776
01:19:25,650 --> 01:19:22,830
of primed for this sort of experience

1777
01:19:29,310 --> 01:19:25,660
this sort for this sort of like eye

1778
01:19:35,220 --> 01:19:29,320
opening moment so yeah I think it has

1779
01:19:38,130 --> 01:19:35,230
the potential to be if not a danger

1780
01:19:40,260 --> 01:19:38,140
maybe starting to you know just open the

1781
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:40,270
door a little bit more for people who

1782
01:19:48,290 --> 01:19:44,100
haven't really paid too much to this

1783
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:48,300
when that movie came out now he was a

1784
01:19:53,820 --> 01:19:49,690
consultant

1785
01:19:56,850 --> 01:19:53,830
how did do you happen to know how that

1786
01:20:01,580 --> 01:19:56,860
connection between him and Steven

1787
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:06,150
it's a it's a fun story and I at the

1788
01:20:09,090 --> 01:20:07,930
beginning of the story is a little hard

1789
01:20:10,770 --> 01:20:09,100
to get straight because I actually

1790
01:20:12,690 --> 01:20:10,780
interviewed two different people from my

1791
01:20:14,220 --> 01:20:12,700
book and I won't mention their names but

1792
01:20:15,900 --> 01:20:14,230
I interviewed two different people who

1793
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:15,910
said you know I'm the person who tipped

1794
01:20:21,050 --> 01:20:17,890
Hynek off that Spielberg was using his

1795
01:20:24,030 --> 01:20:21,060
term for the title of his new movie so

1796
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:24,040
hi Nick hi Nick found out indirectly

1797
01:20:31,170 --> 01:20:26,800
from a friend or from a magazine article

1798
01:20:33,060 --> 01:20:31,180
as he stated he found out that this

1799
01:20:36,390 --> 01:20:33,070
movie director Steven Spielberg was

1800
01:20:38,490 --> 01:20:36,400
making a movie about UFOs and that he

1801
01:20:40,790 --> 01:20:38,500
was calling it Close Encounters of the

1802
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:40,800
Third Kind well as I mentioned before

1803
01:20:48,030 --> 01:20:44,530
dr. Hynek had introduced that concept in

1804
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:48,040
that term in his 1972 book the UFO

1805
01:20:52,860 --> 01:20:50,800
experience so a Hynek finds out that

1806
01:20:55,140 --> 01:20:52,870
this term that he invented is being used

1807
01:20:58,500 --> 01:20:55,150
as the title of a movie

1808
01:21:00,600 --> 01:20:58,510
now remember Steven Spielberg in 1976

1809
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:00,610
was not the superstar he is today

1810
01:21:07,290 --> 01:21:04,170
he had one huge hit under his belt jaws

1811
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:07,300
he was really going out on a limb making

1812
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:08,890
a big-budget science fiction movie

1813
01:21:13,250 --> 01:21:10,930
because you know even though Star Wars

1814
01:21:15,750 --> 01:21:13,260
had just came out a few months earlier

1815
01:21:18,690 --> 01:21:15,760
science fiction was not a sure bet in

1816
01:21:20,700 --> 01:21:18,700
movie theaters okay so so that's where

1817
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:20,710
they're sort of starting from so Hynek

1818
01:21:24,930 --> 01:21:22,210
doesn't really know who this real Berg

1819
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:24,940
twerp is he just knows that this guy's

1820
01:21:27,900 --> 01:21:27,010
using his title and he's not really

1821
01:21:32,340 --> 01:21:27,910
happy about it

1822
01:21:34,860 --> 01:21:32,350
so honest and that's Lee Martin when I

1823
01:21:38,310 --> 01:21:34,870
started my research in the Koufos files

1824
01:21:40,260 --> 01:21:38,320
I I was looking under the letter S and

1825
01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:40,270
these two folders jumped out at me one

1826
01:21:47,820 --> 01:21:44,080
said Sagan and one set Spielberg and I

1827
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:47,830
opened the Spielberg folder and there

1828
01:21:52,380 --> 01:21:49,810
were only a couple pages of paper in it

1829
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:52,390
but the but at the top of the pile was a

1830
01:21:56,630 --> 01:21:54,250
copy of a letter that dr. Hynek had

1831
01:22:01,500 --> 01:21:56,640
written to Steven Spielberg this

1832
01:22:04,620 --> 01:22:01,510
painfully awkward letter saying um I

1833
01:22:07,230 --> 01:22:04,630
understand your new movie is called

1834
01:22:10,290 --> 01:22:07,240
Close Encounters of the Third Kind but

1835
01:22:14,339 --> 01:22:10,300
that's kind of my property we should

1836
01:22:17,089 --> 01:22:14,349
talk it's just this very

1837
01:22:21,169 --> 01:22:17,099
this diplomatically worded letter

1838
01:22:24,029 --> 01:22:21,179
basically saying dude you enough and

1839
01:22:26,989 --> 01:22:24,039
then there is a letter I think it was

1840
01:22:30,209 --> 01:22:26,999
about twelve days later Steven Spielberg

1841
01:22:33,779 --> 01:22:30,219
responded and he said I am so sorry that

1842
01:22:35,909 --> 01:22:33,789
was not my intention he said to be

1843
01:22:37,469 --> 01:22:35,919
honest we're not calling the movie that

1844
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:37,479
anymore we're calling it watch the skies

1845
01:22:41,669 --> 01:22:39,280
which if you're a science fiction movie

1846
01:22:45,149 --> 01:22:41,679
fan you know that that is the signature

1847
01:22:46,649 --> 01:22:45,159
line and of diet dialog like from the

1848
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:46,659
net a movie the thing from another world

1849
01:22:52,379 --> 01:22:50,050
so so Spielberg says we're gonna call

1850
01:22:54,929 --> 01:22:52,389
the movie watch the skies we're not

1851
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:54,939
using your title anymore but Spielberg

1852
01:22:58,319 --> 01:22:56,320
says I do want you to know that your

1853
01:23:00,060 --> 01:22:58,329
book the UFO experience is required

1854
01:23:03,149 --> 01:23:00,070
reading for everybody on my production

1855
01:23:06,810 --> 01:23:03,159
staff because it is such a textbook on

1856
01:23:08,429 --> 01:23:06,820
the UFO phenomenon so so over time

1857
01:23:10,409 --> 01:23:08,439
I'm the two men they worked it all out

1858
01:23:11,790 --> 01:23:10,419
they got over that awkwardness of the

1859
01:23:13,339 --> 01:23:11,800
first couple of letters and they worked

1860
01:23:17,189 --> 01:23:13,349
it all out

1861
01:23:19,369 --> 01:23:17,199
Hynek did actually sell their rights to

1862
01:23:21,810 --> 01:23:19,379
the title to the production company and

1863
01:23:24,899 --> 01:23:21,820
and not just the title of the book but

1864
01:23:28,139 --> 01:23:24,909
the material in the book and then he was

1865
01:23:32,879 --> 01:23:28,149
also hired by Spielberg three days as

1866
01:23:35,219 --> 01:23:32,889
technical consultant for the movie so so

1867
01:23:38,549 --> 01:23:35,229
Hynek had the good fortune to spend

1868
01:23:41,339 --> 01:23:38,559
three days on set it was actually not in

1869
01:23:44,459 --> 01:23:41,349
Hollywood it was in Alabama they used a

1870
01:23:48,270 --> 01:23:44,469
huge huge airplane hangar to build the

1871
01:23:50,549 --> 01:23:48,280
Dark Side of the Moon UFO landing from

1872
01:23:56,429 --> 01:23:50,559
the movie so Hynek spends three days on

1873
01:23:58,560 --> 01:23:56,439
set and while well he's there goofy idea

1874
01:24:01,949 --> 01:23:58,570
to do a cameo appearance sort of a shock

1875
01:24:04,109 --> 01:24:01,959
type cameo appearance of dr. Hynek and

1876
01:24:05,790 --> 01:24:04,119
so Hynek actually ends up in the moon

1877
01:24:13,409 --> 01:24:05,800
meet you know a lot of your listeners

1878
01:24:16,679 --> 01:24:13,419
I'm sure will remote written that that

1879
01:24:18,179 --> 01:24:16,689
moment and Rick it's kind of a nice

1880
01:24:22,349 --> 01:24:18,189
moment in the movie because it's just

1881
01:24:25,979 --> 01:24:22,359
settle down over over the UFO landing

1882
01:24:28,319 --> 01:24:25,989
field and all of these scientists and

1883
01:24:30,540 --> 01:24:28,329
technicians in their white lab coats

1884
01:24:32,580 --> 01:24:30,550
they're all kind of hanging back from

1885
01:24:34,589 --> 01:24:32,590
the mothership and Hynek just comes

1886
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:34,599
walking purposefully through the crowd

1887
01:24:40,260 --> 01:24:39,130
and up past all these sign it and just

1888
01:24:42,359 --> 01:24:40,270
to get a good look at the mothership

1889
01:24:43,950 --> 01:24:42,369
it's like lab along here it's just a

1890
01:24:48,930 --> 01:24:43,960
really nice moment really smoking his

1891
01:24:50,970 --> 01:24:48,940
pipe too isn't he yeah he's fiddling

1892
01:24:53,700 --> 01:24:50,980
with his pipe and he strokes his goatee

1893
01:24:55,290 --> 01:24:53,710
thoughtfully it's all very funny and and

1894
01:24:58,410 --> 01:24:55,300
there were some outtakes somewhere

1895
01:25:00,359 --> 01:24:58,420
there's a hello areas South take reel of

1896
01:25:02,189 --> 01:25:00,369
when they shot hi annex cameo appearance

1897
01:25:03,540 --> 01:25:02,199
I'm not gonna give it away here if you

1898
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:03,550
want to read about it read my book

1899
01:25:08,669 --> 01:25:05,170
because I go into detail about it it's

1900
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:08,679
it's some really fun fun stuff what do

1901
01:25:15,799 --> 01:25:12,090
you think was the most puzzling case

1902
01:25:21,510 --> 01:25:15,809
according to his thoughts that he was

1903
01:25:23,790 --> 01:25:21,520
interested in oh wow I you know I I

1904
01:25:25,879 --> 01:25:23,800
could name several of course we we have

1905
01:25:30,020 --> 01:25:25,889
to go back to the Lonnie Zamora KS

1906
01:25:33,629 --> 01:25:30,030
Socorro in 1965 that was I mean Heine

1907
01:25:38,459 --> 01:25:33,639
described that case as the rosetta stone

1908
01:25:40,020 --> 01:25:38,469
of UFOs we could also go to 1973 he was

1909
01:25:42,569 --> 01:25:40,030
extremely puzzled by the Pascagoula

1910
01:25:46,530 --> 01:25:42,579
abduction case but the case that took

1911
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:46,540
place only a week later in October 1973

1912
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:50,650
the coin helico right that was that was

1913
01:25:53,879 --> 01:25:52,210
and then and that almost never gets me

1914
01:25:55,799 --> 01:25:53,889
again but that's that's really kind of

1915
01:25:57,629 --> 01:25:55,809
the gold standard of you oh yeah let's

1916
01:26:00,510 --> 01:25:57,639
talk about that Anderson

1917
01:26:02,370 --> 01:26:00,520
oh I know that it was above them and you

1918
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:02,380
know that they drew him drew it up

1919
01:26:08,910 --> 01:26:04,090
toward them or actually wasn't their

1920
01:26:10,140 --> 01:26:08,920
contact there was there was almost all

1921
01:26:13,109 --> 01:26:10,150
right so why don't you describe the

1922
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:13,119
story I know I least people has talked

1923
01:26:15,569 --> 01:26:14,770
about that on the show before it's just

1924
01:26:19,979 --> 01:26:15,579
fascinating

1925
01:26:25,770 --> 01:26:19,989
oh yeah yeah it's a really meaty case so

1926
01:26:29,339 --> 01:26:25,780
a crew of four met oh gosh were they

1927
01:26:31,649 --> 01:26:29,349
army or Air Force I can't remember let's

1928
01:26:33,899 --> 01:26:31,659
just say military it's a crew of four

1929
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:33,909
military guys in their helicopter flying

1930
01:26:41,549 --> 01:26:39,130
at night over Ohio returning to base

1931
01:26:45,270 --> 01:26:41,559
after having their medical

1932
01:26:46,919 --> 01:26:45,280
it's done so they're flying home it's a

1933
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:46,929
routine flight it's a beautiful night

1934
01:26:53,399 --> 01:26:48,489
it's one of the nicest flights they've

1935
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:53,409
ever had and and one of the crew members

1936
01:26:58,169 --> 01:26:55,210
sees a funny light off in the distance

1937
01:27:00,810 --> 01:26:58,179
it's a glowing red and they quickly

1938
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:00,820
discern that whatever this thing is it

1939
01:27:06,330 --> 01:27:02,770
is heading on a collision course with

1940
01:27:10,649 --> 01:27:06,340
them they feel like it's a torpedo that

1941
01:27:13,290 --> 01:27:10,659
has been fired at them and the commander

1942
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:13,300
Lawrence Coyne takes the controls from

1943
01:27:20,010 --> 01:27:16,960
from the copilot puts this helicopter

1944
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:20,020
into literally a crash dive a very steep

1945
01:27:26,250 --> 01:27:23,679
very terrifying dive to avoid impact

1946
01:27:29,270 --> 01:27:26,260
with this object the next thing these

1947
01:27:32,970 --> 01:27:29,280
four guys know this object has is

1948
01:27:35,399 --> 01:27:32,980
floated being right outside the front

1949
01:27:37,290 --> 01:27:35,409
cockpit windows of their helicopter it's

1950
01:27:39,390 --> 01:27:37,300
a cigar shaped object it's got a bright

1951
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:39,400
red light at one end it's got a bright

1952
01:27:43,859 --> 01:27:41,530
green light on the other end there are

1953
01:27:46,859 --> 01:27:43,869
no wings there's no there's no visible

1954
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:46,869
source of propulsion there's a sort of a

1955
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:49,090
dome-like object on the top that maybe

1956
01:27:54,930 --> 01:27:52,960
be as a [\h__\h] they can't really tell help

1957
01:27:57,089 --> 01:27:54,940
in light on one end of this object

1958
01:27:59,189 --> 01:27:57,099
literally bathes the interior of the

1959
01:28:01,709 --> 01:27:59,199
cockpit of the helicopter for about 10

1960
01:28:03,990 --> 01:28:01,719
seconds they they perceive it as about

1961
01:28:05,850 --> 01:28:04,000
10 seconds that this object is floating

1962
01:28:09,330 --> 01:28:05,860
outside the front of their helicopter

1963
01:28:10,859 --> 01:28:09,340
and and it suddenly shoots off into the

1964
01:28:14,129 --> 01:28:10,869
distance and disappears into the

1965
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:14,139
distance in the sky well captain coin

1966
01:28:19,770 --> 01:28:17,130
looks at his altimeter and realizes that

1967
01:28:24,660 --> 01:28:19,780
instead of going into a crash dive and

1968
01:28:27,359 --> 01:28:24,670
he still is he still he still has his

1969
01:28:29,879 --> 01:28:27,369
controls didn't crash dedication but

1970
01:28:32,399 --> 01:28:29,889
somehow or another the helicopter is

1971
01:28:33,930 --> 01:28:32,409
actually rising at a South I think a

1972
01:28:36,209 --> 01:28:33,940
thousand feet per minute really

1973
01:28:38,910 --> 01:28:36,219
astonishing speed and they're back up at

1974
01:28:40,290 --> 01:28:38,920
3,500 feet and still ascending so he

1975
01:28:42,810 --> 01:28:40,300
gets the helicopter and he's got this

1976
01:28:45,569 --> 01:28:42,820
captain coin has this great quote that I

1977
01:28:47,189 --> 01:28:45,579
have in the book he simply says a Huey

1978
01:28:53,069 --> 01:28:47,199
can't do that

1979
01:28:55,500 --> 01:28:53,079
the copter stabilized they fly back to

1980
01:28:58,919 --> 01:28:55,510
base within a couple days the store

1981
01:29:00,779 --> 01:28:58,929
has gotten out and it becomes front-page

1982
01:29:02,220 --> 01:29:00,789
news all around the country and it's you

1983
01:29:04,259 --> 01:29:02,230
know of course it's remarkable because

1984
01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:04,269
this is taking place like a week after

1985
01:29:12,620 --> 01:29:08,710
this pascagoula abduction so that case

1986
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:12,630
was really really big to Hynek as well

1987
01:29:18,810 --> 01:29:15,730
because the witnesses the witnesses were

1988
01:29:20,490 --> 01:29:18,820
also credible over the men with very

1989
01:29:22,109 --> 01:29:20,500
little discrepancy all four of the men

1990
01:29:28,740 --> 01:29:22,119
saw essentially the same thing perceived

1991
01:29:30,149 --> 01:29:28,750
the same things and Hynek I I mentioned

1992
01:29:32,399 --> 01:29:30,159
these audio recordings that that

1993
01:29:34,129 --> 01:29:32,409
Michaels sword shared with me he also

1994
01:29:35,819 --> 01:29:34,139
had an audio recording of dr. Hynek

1995
01:29:37,799 --> 01:29:35,829
interviewing the four guys on the

1996
01:29:40,890 --> 01:29:37,809
helicopter crew and they just they tell

1997
01:29:43,109 --> 01:29:40,900
an amazing story Wow and and one of the

1998
01:29:44,729 --> 01:29:43,119
guys on the crew says utters the famous

1999
01:29:46,890 --> 01:29:44,739
words that so many UFO witnesses have

2000
01:29:51,629 --> 01:29:46,900
said he just says to dr. Hynek he says I

2001
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:51,639
know what I saw yeah that's great so I

2002
01:29:56,339 --> 01:29:54,489
would say those are those are among the

2003
01:29:58,290 --> 01:29:56,349
most significant cases to Hynek but then

2004
01:30:00,479 --> 01:29:58,300
you can also go back god I could give

2005
01:30:03,330 --> 01:30:00,489
you such a long list Martin I'm gonna go

2006
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:03,340
all the way back to 1953 the termit in

2007
01:30:11,100 --> 01:30:06,489
Utah film taken by Delbert Newhouse this

2008
01:30:13,589 --> 01:30:11,110
astonishing movie film of these 15 or 20

2009
01:30:18,359 --> 01:30:13,599
glowing white objects cavorting about in

2010
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:18,369
the sky over over northern Utah and the

2011
01:30:23,970 --> 01:30:20,530
this film the movie film that Newhouse

2012
01:30:27,149 --> 01:30:23,980
took was sent to our best photo

2013
01:30:31,290 --> 01:30:27,159
intelligence experts and they could not

2014
01:30:34,410 --> 01:30:31,300
find any indication that this film had

2015
01:30:36,990 --> 01:30:34,420
been hoaxed or that it was a mistake in

2016
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:37,000
any way they decided it could not

2017
01:30:41,879 --> 01:30:39,730
possibly be Birds it could not possibly

2018
01:30:43,890 --> 01:30:41,889
be balloons it could not possibly be

2019
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:43,900
aircraft these objects were either

2020
01:30:47,549 --> 01:30:46,000
reflecting or emitting brilliant light

2021
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:47,559
and their

2022
01:30:57,060 --> 01:30:53,250
manoeuvring displayed displayed signs of

2023
01:30:59,160 --> 01:30:57,070
intelligence so that so that's all the

2024
01:31:00,839 --> 01:30:59,170
way back in the early 1950s yet again

2025
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:00,849
another case that just had a really

2026
01:31:06,270 --> 01:31:03,610
really significant effect on hynek's

2027
01:31:09,250 --> 01:31:06,280
thinking and his in his theories now was

2028
01:31:12,399 --> 01:31:09,260
that one you know I may be confused

2029
01:31:15,609 --> 01:31:12,409
this with the Catalina Island of filming

2030
01:31:17,589 --> 01:31:15,619
do you know what I'm talking about

2031
01:31:20,229 --> 01:31:17,599
yeah I'm not well-versed on that case so

2032
01:31:22,959 --> 01:31:20,239
so it's this one with the five glowing

2033
01:31:24,970 --> 01:31:22,969
objects can you find that film anywhere

2034
01:31:27,759 --> 01:31:24,980
online on YouTube or anything like that

2035
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:27,769
oh yeah yes you absolutely can't just

2036
01:31:36,189 --> 01:31:32,690
just it's true montón Utah again I I'm

2037
01:31:39,790 --> 01:31:36,199
quite sure it was 1953 you can also look

2038
01:31:41,589 --> 01:31:39,800
under new house and II whou se I think

2039
01:31:43,750 --> 01:31:41,599
the video is on YouTube I found it a

2040
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:43,760
couple different places and you know

2041
01:31:50,410 --> 01:31:46,730
this is this is movie that was taken you

2042
01:31:52,689 --> 01:31:50,420
know decades ago on a you know not a

2043
01:31:56,259 --> 01:31:52,699
professional movie camera you know more

2044
01:31:58,209 --> 01:31:56,269
of a consumer model movie camera that

2045
01:32:00,069 --> 01:31:58,219
this guy Newhouse just happened to have

2046
01:32:02,290 --> 01:32:00,079
with him because turns out he was a navy

2047
01:32:04,029 --> 01:32:02,300
photographer so of course he's got a

2048
01:32:06,580 --> 01:32:04,039
movie camera in the trunk of his car

2049
01:32:08,890 --> 01:32:06,590
when he's on vacation so you know so the

2050
01:32:12,250 --> 01:32:08,900
film is not you look at it now and it's

2051
01:32:15,310 --> 01:32:12,260
not like you know it's a it's a grainy

2052
01:32:19,209 --> 01:32:15,320
image there it you know it sort of jumps

2053
01:32:20,770 --> 01:32:19,219
and flutters at some moments but if you

2054
01:32:22,359 --> 01:32:20,780
but if you just watch it a couple times

2055
01:32:25,660 --> 01:32:22,369
it's really quite astonishing because

2056
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:25,670
these objects they at first they seem to

2057
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:28,610
be moving about completely randomly but

2058
01:32:32,770 --> 01:32:30,650
then as you watch it they sort of seem

2059
01:32:34,870 --> 01:32:32,780
to pair up and form groups and then they

2060
01:32:37,450 --> 01:32:34,880
diverge and then they reconverge again

2061
01:32:39,490 --> 01:32:37,460
it's kind of mesmerizing and it's it's a

2062
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:39,500
very very weird film you watch it and

2063
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:42,050
you just you you you really have to

2064
01:32:50,109 --> 01:32:44,090
wonder what the heck these people saw

2065
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:50,119
what was dr. hynek's envisioning when he

2066
01:32:55,060 --> 01:32:53,570
started the UFO organization because

2067
01:32:59,410 --> 01:32:55,070
there was already there was already a

2068
01:33:01,209 --> 01:32:59,420
few established right yeah I mean there

2069
01:33:02,859 --> 01:33:01,219
had been civilian and saucer groups

2070
01:33:07,049 --> 01:33:02,869
going all the way back to the early 50s

2071
01:33:11,100 --> 01:33:07,059
nycap a bro of course MUFON

2072
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:11,110
but when Hynek formed his organization

2073
01:33:20,919 --> 01:33:16,130
what he really hoped was he wanted to

2074
01:33:22,780 --> 01:33:20,929
elevate the study of UFOs to the same

2075
01:33:28,030 --> 01:33:22,790
level as any other science

2076
01:33:30,820 --> 01:33:28,040
okay he just wanted the student as a

2077
01:33:33,670 --> 01:33:30,830
legitimate scientific pursuit now later

2078
01:33:35,470 --> 01:33:33,680
on when he moved to Arizona in the last

2079
01:33:38,700 --> 01:33:35,480
years of his life and and he had this

2080
01:33:40,810 --> 01:33:38,710
big dream of founding this this um

2081
01:33:44,860 --> 01:33:40,820
International UFO research center in

2082
01:33:50,440 --> 01:33:44,870
Scottsdale Arizona he he had this idea

2083
01:33:51,970 --> 01:33:50,450
that teams of scientists would just

2084
01:33:55,090 --> 01:33:51,980
concentrate they would pick one case

2085
01:33:58,180 --> 01:33:55,100
that seemed to have the greatest

2086
01:34:00,190 --> 01:33:58,190
scientific value that seemed to have you

2087
01:34:02,290 --> 01:34:00,200
know hard evidence that could be studied

2088
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:02,300
and he hoped that he could just sort of

2089
01:34:05,500 --> 01:34:04,130
set those scientists loose to just

2090
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:05,510
devote all their time to this one

2091
01:34:11,380 --> 01:34:08,570
specific case as long as it took for

2092
01:34:12,970 --> 01:34:11,390
them to find answers and then he hoped

2093
01:34:15,250 --> 01:34:12,980
that after analyzing a number of these

2094
01:34:20,350 --> 01:34:15,260
cases his scientists could put together

2095
01:34:23,670 --> 01:34:20,360
case studies that were so methodical

2096
01:34:26,610 --> 01:34:23,680
that were so I earned clad that were so

2097
01:34:29,350 --> 01:34:26,620
scientific that they could actually be

2098
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:29,360
you know peer-reviewed and published in

2099
01:34:35,260 --> 01:34:33,290
in scientific journals and be taken

2100
01:34:38,650 --> 01:34:35,270
seriously by the scientific world that

2101
01:34:41,740 --> 01:34:38,660
was his big big dream and I know I'm

2102
01:34:47,830 --> 01:34:41,750
I've had a couple people on from on this

2103
01:34:50,170 --> 01:34:47,840
show from that and I remember talking

2104
01:34:51,580 --> 01:34:50,180
and I'm trying to remember his name of

2105
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:51,590
friends with him on Facebook and

2106
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:52,730
everything I just can't picture him

2107
01:35:00,160 --> 01:34:54,770
right now he lives in Hawaii do you

2108
01:35:04,450 --> 01:35:00,170
happen to know who I mean no I don't

2109
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:04,460
think I told you but anyway he was

2110
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:07,610
saying that you know they have done some

2111
01:35:11,860 --> 01:35:10,610
really good work but I can't remember

2112
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:11,870
what he said about things being

2113
01:35:16,950 --> 01:35:13,250
published I don't think there's been

2114
01:35:23,230 --> 01:35:20,410
knots of my knowledge and and and at

2115
01:35:24,640 --> 01:35:23,240
this in this you know at this stage of

2116
01:35:27,910 --> 01:35:24,650
the game it that that would be a tall

2117
01:35:28,950 --> 01:35:27,920
mountain to climb it would yeah

2118
01:35:31,060 --> 01:35:28,960
absolutely

2119
01:35:32,230 --> 01:35:31,070
well I mean it let's let's be honest

2120
01:35:35,490 --> 01:35:32,240
yeah yeah ya know

2121
01:35:38,580 --> 01:35:35,500
so high Nick he he passed away in 1986

2122
01:35:43,290 --> 01:35:38,590
and so he was active toward it all the

2123
01:35:45,900 --> 01:35:43,300
way to the end you believe well he

2124
01:35:47,070 --> 01:35:45,910
certainly active in his mind even even

2125
01:35:49,620 --> 01:35:47,080
when he was you know physically

2126
01:35:51,660 --> 01:35:49,630
deteriorating there's a really wonderful

2127
01:35:53,790 --> 01:35:51,670
interview that he did for Omni magazine

2128
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:53,800
just about a year before he passed away

2129
01:35:59,460 --> 01:35:57,730
and his he's just a brilliant guy he's

2130
01:36:02,250 --> 01:35:59,470
you know he's just rattling off ideas

2131
01:36:04,440 --> 01:36:02,260
and and stories a mile a minute

2132
01:36:06,780 --> 01:36:04,450
in this interview you'd you'd never

2133
01:36:09,270 --> 01:36:06,790
think that this guy was suffering from

2134
01:36:12,870 --> 01:36:09,280
any kind of physical malady at all he is

2135
01:36:13,860 --> 01:36:12,880
his brand in was still very active he

2136
01:36:16,410 --> 01:36:13,870
was always thinking he was always

2137
01:36:18,180 --> 01:36:16,420
speculating he always loved a good UFO

2138
01:36:22,230 --> 01:36:18,190
story I mean in the last years of his

2139
01:36:26,100 --> 01:36:22,240
life living in Arizona he got involved

2140
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:26,110
in the is it hostile yeah the estimate

2141
01:36:33,510 --> 01:36:29,650
if you would please hang on yeah we will

2142
01:36:35,250 --> 01:36:33,520
continue that in in a minute here okay

2143
01:36:36,810 --> 01:36:35,260
so we have a caller someone that just

2144
01:36:39,630 --> 01:36:36,820
called in and make sure your computer's

2145
01:36:42,270 --> 01:36:39,640
your computer's down or not not to

2146
01:36:46,050 --> 01:36:42,280
blasting away so caller your first name

2147
01:36:48,930 --> 01:36:46,060
and where are you calling from this is

2148
01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:48,940
again from Greer's hey Ryan how are ya

2149
01:37:03,150 --> 01:36:58,950
question a question for our guest yeah

2150
01:37:05,820 --> 01:37:03,160
I believe my question is did Hynek ever

2151
01:37:07,670 --> 01:37:05,830
did you ever since and in reviewing his

2152
01:37:14,690 --> 01:37:07,680
career that yeah he got kind of

2153
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:14,700
frustrated from a hard evidence in this

2154
01:37:18,480 --> 01:37:17,770
yes that's an easy that's an easy

2155
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:18,490
question to answer

2156
01:37:22,530 --> 01:37:20,290
yeah that was a constant that was a

2157
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:22,540
constant source of frustration for him

2158
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:24,250
you know I had talked about some of his

2159
01:37:30,900 --> 01:37:27,280
categories like the the daytime disc and

2160
01:37:33,210 --> 01:37:30,910
the meandering nocturnal lights he you

2161
01:37:34,890 --> 01:37:33,220
know cases like that it's sort of like

2162
01:37:36,270 --> 01:37:34,900
well what can you do with them you you

2163
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:36,280
know you can interview the witness and

2164
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:38,410
in the inner the witness can tell you

2165
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:40,570
well I saw this strange light it seemed

2166
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:42,730
brighter than all the other stars in the

2167
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:45,370
sky and it moved kind of erratic way

2168
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:49,090
across the sky okay a

2169
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:51,610
that that's an interesting you know

2170
01:37:54,270 --> 01:37:52,810
where do you go with that it's hard to

2171
01:37:56,570 --> 01:37:54,280
it's hard to do any investigation of a

2172
01:38:00,720 --> 01:37:56,580
case like that and so yeah and and and

2173
01:38:02,310 --> 01:38:00,730
the vast majority of cases are in that

2174
01:38:04,290 --> 01:38:02,320
category you know there's just not a

2175
01:38:07,290 --> 01:38:04,300
whole lot all of them are really well

2176
01:38:09,180 --> 01:38:07,300
yeah exactly so so that was a

2177
01:38:12,629 --> 01:38:09,190
frustration for him and that goes back

2178
01:38:15,330 --> 01:38:12,639
even to his Air Force days he would have

2179
01:38:17,850 --> 01:38:15,340
to go through dozens maybe hundreds of

2180
01:38:19,350 --> 01:38:17,860
reports that didn't really add up too

2181
01:38:22,229 --> 01:38:19,360
much it doesn't mean that he was

2182
01:38:23,459 --> 01:38:22,239
dismissive of those reports it just

2183
01:38:25,649 --> 01:38:23,469
meant that there really wasn't enough

2184
01:38:28,220 --> 01:38:25,659
there to go on and he would have to go

2185
01:38:31,189 --> 01:38:28,230
through sometimes hundreds of those and

2186
01:38:33,660 --> 01:38:31,199
till he come across a case that was of

2187
01:38:35,189 --> 01:38:33,670
you know some serious interest like oh

2188
01:38:37,109 --> 01:38:35,199
there may be some evidence there may be

2189
01:38:39,030 --> 01:38:37,119
some physical evidence here or you know

2190
01:38:40,890 --> 01:38:39,040
we may have multiple witnesses here so

2191
01:38:42,899 --> 01:38:40,900
yeah that those really good cases were

2192
01:38:45,330 --> 01:38:42,909
kind of needles in a haystack and and it

2193
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:45,340
could get very frustrating for him but

2194
01:38:51,839 --> 01:38:48,610
at the same time he was such he was such

2195
01:38:53,550 --> 01:38:51,849
a methodical scientific mind that you

2196
01:38:55,890 --> 01:38:53,560
know that was that was just the way

2197
01:38:58,649 --> 01:38:55,900
science is done you have to do all that

2198
01:39:00,209 --> 01:38:58,659
dull frustrating work you know you just

2199
01:39:02,430 --> 01:39:00,219
have to do it there's no getting around

2200
01:39:04,890 --> 01:39:02,440
it because if you try to take a shortcut

2201
01:39:06,330 --> 01:39:04,900
on that end of your research then

2202
01:39:09,300 --> 01:39:06,340
whatever your findings are may be

2203
01:39:10,890 --> 01:39:09,310
suspect so you know it kind of it comes

2204
01:39:15,750 --> 01:39:10,900
with the territory of being a scientist

2205
01:39:18,300 --> 01:39:15,760
really yeah did he at the end of the day

2206
01:39:22,020 --> 01:39:18,310
did he feel that the one is a moral case

2207
01:39:24,060 --> 01:39:22,030
was the best cuz I asked because I've

2208
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:24,070
always felt that that that's at the top

2209
01:39:29,250 --> 01:39:26,800
of my list I'm I'm a skeptic just to

2210
01:39:31,740 --> 01:39:29,260
tell you upfront okay and I've always

2211
01:39:33,060 --> 01:39:31,750
been I've always been convinced in spite

2212
01:39:34,890 --> 01:39:33,070
of that their lives are more assault

2213
01:39:36,510 --> 01:39:34,900
something I don't know what it was he

2214
01:39:37,979 --> 01:39:36,520
saw but yeah it could have been a test

2215
01:39:39,450 --> 01:39:37,989
thing could have been the

2216
01:39:41,220 --> 01:39:39,460
extra-terrestrial I don't know but I've

2217
01:39:43,530 --> 01:39:41,230
always been convinced he saw something

2218
01:39:45,740 --> 01:39:43,540
it did Heineken did he feel that was

2219
01:39:48,839 --> 01:39:45,750
just about the top of the list

2220
01:39:52,589 --> 01:39:48,849
absolutely as I said before he he he

2221
01:39:54,479 --> 01:39:52,599
once said that this does little ah he's

2222
01:39:56,669 --> 01:39:54,489
a more a case was the Rosetta Stone of

2223
01:40:02,070 --> 01:39:56,679
ufology in other words he thought that

2224
01:40:03,060 --> 01:40:02,080
this case this one o case could possibly

2225
01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:03,070
hold

2226
01:40:09,390 --> 01:40:05,770
the key to explaining at least some part

2227
01:40:11,430 --> 01:40:09,400
of the UFO mystery now he did have some

2228
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:11,440
doubts about the Zamora case I'll have

2229
01:40:14,790 --> 01:40:13,090
to be honest because the way Lonnie

2230
01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:14,800
Zamora described to the craft when it

2231
01:40:19,339 --> 01:40:16,690
when it roared up in the air and shot

2232
01:40:25,470 --> 01:40:22,229
Hynek thought it was odd that when that

2233
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:25,480
when the object blasted off from this

2234
01:40:29,790 --> 01:40:28,000
rocky sandy Arroyo that it didn't kick

2235
01:40:33,629 --> 01:40:29,800
up a cloud of dust that was hynek's

2236
01:40:35,580 --> 01:40:33,639
first first question and the second

2237
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:35,590
question was this took place in south

2238
01:40:39,899 --> 01:40:37,449
central New Mexico very close to

2239
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:39,909
Holloman Air Force Base white sands

2240
01:40:44,060 --> 01:40:40,690
missile ground

2241
01:40:49,350 --> 01:40:44,070
Hynek said there there is radar

2242
01:40:51,180 --> 01:40:49,360
everywhere in this part of New Mexico

2243
01:40:53,220 --> 01:40:51,190
these radar installations pick up this

2244
01:40:55,109 --> 01:40:53,230
craft because that was part of his

2245
01:40:57,359 --> 01:40:55,119
research was to find out if if anybody

2246
01:40:59,459 --> 01:40:57,369
had spotted it on radar and nobody had

2247
01:41:01,729 --> 01:40:59,469
so those were a couple of the stumbling

2248
01:41:04,890 --> 01:41:01,739
blocks tonight

2249
01:41:07,859 --> 01:41:04,900
pardon me nobody claimed they did it's

2250
01:41:09,209 --> 01:41:07,869
fair point absolutely fair point so he

2251
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:09,219
filled it as the more thing might have

2252
01:41:15,180 --> 01:41:12,010
been something Sparrow I don't that's

2253
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:15,190
always been my downer yeah yeah and then

2254
01:41:19,229 --> 01:41:17,770
that's that's that's a theory that has

2255
01:41:19,879 --> 01:41:19,239
always been really popular to explain

2256
01:41:22,500 --> 01:41:19,889
the Zamora

2257
01:41:24,660 --> 01:41:22,510
incident the air force people from

2258
01:41:27,390 --> 01:41:24,670
Holloman said that it absolutely was not

2259
01:41:34,950 --> 01:41:27,400
a test vehicle from so you got the Air

2260
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:34,960
Force denying that's don't worry I never

2261
01:41:41,850 --> 01:41:39,210
found any of heineken amendment NASA or

2262
01:41:44,149 --> 01:41:41,860
military correct he did consider that I

2263
01:41:51,209 --> 01:41:44,159
don't think that idea lasted very long

2264
01:41:52,979 --> 01:41:51,219
all right it behavior kind of reminds me

2265
01:41:56,250 --> 01:41:52,989
of the limb except that for one thing

2266
01:41:57,419 --> 01:41:56,260
her in the air with no noise exactly and

2267
01:42:01,709 --> 01:41:57,429
the other thing is if you remember the

2268
01:42:03,300 --> 01:42:01,719
lunar excursion mom I just from the

2269
01:42:05,490 --> 01:42:03,310
Apollo missions and it took off again

2270
01:42:05,970 --> 01:42:05,500
they left behind half the craft sitting

2271
01:42:07,950 --> 01:42:05,980
on the moon

2272
01:42:10,589 --> 01:42:07,960
now amorous craft did not do that the

2273
01:42:12,660 --> 01:42:10,599
entire craft lifted up and flew away

2274
01:42:14,850 --> 01:42:12,670
yeah so that's a huge huge difference

2275
01:42:17,130 --> 01:42:14,860
there I do right hey thanks so much for

2276
01:42:20,709 --> 01:42:17,140
the call I appreciate it

2277
01:42:23,050 --> 01:42:20,719
all right all right there thanks Ron

2278
01:42:25,150 --> 01:42:23,060
so if anyone else would like to call and

2279
01:42:27,690 --> 01:42:25,160
we can take calls at this time and I'm

2280
01:42:31,750 --> 01:42:27,700
so happy this Skype issue has finally

2281
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:31,760
has finally been fixed but you were

2282
01:42:35,350 --> 01:42:33,530
right before the call came in you were

2283
01:42:40,959 --> 01:42:35,360
talking about his interests in the head

2284
01:42:42,490 --> 01:42:40,969
stolen well right right yeah I just

2285
01:42:44,500 --> 01:42:42,500
wanted to point out because somebody had

2286
01:42:45,970 --> 01:42:44,510
asked about you know its interest I

2287
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:45,980
think somebody had asked about his

2288
01:42:50,229 --> 01:42:48,530
interest later in life and yeah in the

2289
01:42:53,860 --> 01:42:50,239
last couple years of his life even when

2290
01:42:55,990 --> 01:42:53,870
he will with you know no becoming old

2291
01:42:57,190 --> 01:42:56,000
and Braille and fighting cancer yeah he

2292
01:43:00,790 --> 01:42:57,200
got involved in the hessed island lights

2293
01:43:04,479 --> 01:43:00,800
he actually took it to its Norway if I'm

2294
01:43:06,940 --> 01:43:04,489
not mistaken he actually took a trip

2295
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:06,950
there to study the lights because there

2296
01:43:13,630 --> 01:43:09,530
was a period in the mid 80s when the the

2297
01:43:17,620 --> 01:43:13,640
Hestia don't unlights as I understand it

2298
01:43:18,850 --> 01:43:17,630
became envisioned in great abundance so

2299
01:43:20,410 --> 01:43:18,860
that was exciting enough that Hynek

2300
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:20,420
actually took a trip there he actually

2301
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:21,890
almost died there because he was out

2302
01:43:26,530 --> 01:43:24,170
late one night driving back to his hotel

2303
01:43:28,600 --> 01:43:26,540
I believe and it was in the dead of

2304
01:43:30,790 --> 01:43:28,610
winter and he ran out of gas along this

2305
01:43:32,830 --> 01:43:30,800
deserted Highway in them but nowhere and

2306
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:32,840
just just pure luck that he found

2307
01:43:36,850 --> 01:43:35,330
someone to help him out of his jam so so

2308
01:43:39,459 --> 01:43:36,860
hessed island lights was a case that he

2309
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:39,469
got interested in although we could not

2310
01:43:47,260 --> 01:43:45,170
explain it of course the the the New

2311
01:43:49,450 --> 01:43:47,270
York sightings yeah that's Valley sight

2312
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:49,460
yes which he ended up you know and he

2313
01:43:52,540 --> 01:43:50,690
ended up contributing something to the

2314
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:52,550
book about that sighting that was a case

2315
01:43:56,800 --> 01:43:54,530
that he got very interested in the cash

2316
01:43:58,060 --> 01:43:56,810
Landrum case also took place and that's

2317
01:44:00,310 --> 01:43:58,070
same time period

2318
01:44:01,630 --> 01:44:00,320
he was very fascinated by that so those

2319
01:44:03,610 --> 01:44:01,640
were three other capes so there were

2320
01:44:05,890 --> 01:44:03,620
still cases right up until his last days

2321
01:44:07,870 --> 01:44:05,900
there were still cases that were just

2322
01:44:10,090 --> 01:44:07,880
curious enough just unexplainable enough

2323
01:44:12,820 --> 01:44:10,100
that they really piqued his interest and

2324
01:44:14,950 --> 01:44:12,830
and you know and kept his you know kept

2325
01:44:17,590 --> 01:44:14,960
his vitality up I'm sure right right now

2326
01:44:20,350 --> 01:44:17,600
you don't I've had people say a couple

2327
01:44:22,290 --> 01:44:20,360
times and I sort of agree there's no

2328
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:22,300
really big cases happening hasn't

2329
01:44:27,790 --> 01:44:24,890
nothing's really happened in a while you

2330
01:44:30,430 --> 01:44:27,800
know the last really good unexplainable

2331
01:44:35,250 --> 01:44:30,440
case that I can think of offhand as the

2332
01:44:37,330 --> 01:44:35,260
go Rican case that was filmed by the

2333
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:37,340
trying to think it was the air force or

2334
01:44:41,380 --> 01:44:39,650
something but it mark rotten gore was

2335
01:44:43,420 --> 01:44:41,390
involved in trying to you know figure

2336
01:44:46,540 --> 01:44:43,430
out what that was but there's no real

2337
01:44:48,510 --> 01:44:46,550
big cases like you know like you just

2338
01:44:51,370 --> 01:44:48,520
talked the cash Landrum or any of those

2339
01:44:57,010 --> 01:44:51,380
Pascagoula you just don't hear of it as

2340
01:45:00,430 --> 01:44:57,020
much have you noticed that absolutely

2341
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:00,440
and it's the kind of thing that almost

2342
01:45:06,100 --> 01:45:03,770
makes you wonder if that is deliberate

2343
01:45:07,510 --> 01:45:06,110
on the part of the UFOs and so I'm kind

2344
01:45:11,530 --> 01:45:07,520
of gonna go out on a little bit of a

2345
01:45:13,959 --> 01:45:11,540
okay here but I'm sort of following I'm

2346
01:45:17,260 --> 01:45:13,969
sort of following along with dr. hynek's

2347
01:45:20,140 --> 01:45:17,270
hunch that this phenomenon made it may

2348
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:20,150
have a psychological aspect to it well

2349
01:45:24,790 --> 01:45:21,890
if it has a psychological aspect to it

2350
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:24,800
then that means that in some way this

2351
01:45:30,070 --> 01:45:28,850
phenomenon is manipulating our my ants

2352
01:45:32,830 --> 01:45:30,080
to some degree

2353
01:45:38,020 --> 01:45:32,840
so maybe it's also kind of messing with

2354
01:45:40,180 --> 01:45:38,030
our expectations and our perceptions mmm

2355
01:45:42,250 --> 01:45:40,190
maybe it's okay you know what we've had

2356
01:45:43,990 --> 01:45:42,260
some fun now let's let's back off let's

2357
01:45:45,640 --> 01:45:44,000
just not appear for a while and leave

2358
01:45:48,370 --> 01:45:45,650
and leave those humans all scratching

2359
01:45:52,180 --> 01:45:48,380
their head wondering what what happened

2360
01:45:54,850 --> 01:45:52,190
I mean there's in there it may sit

2361
01:45:57,820 --> 01:45:54,860
Southie when I when I say it but there

2362
01:46:00,700 --> 01:45:57,830
are definite moments in the history of

2363
01:46:03,490 --> 01:46:00,710
the UFO phenomenon when it kind of seems

2364
01:46:07,810 --> 01:46:03,500
like that sort of active thinking and

2365
01:46:10,540 --> 01:46:07,820
deliberate action is taking place on the

2366
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:10,550
part of the UFOs and who or whatever

2367
01:46:15,490 --> 01:46:13,850
meant maybe inside them where they're

2368
01:46:17,470 --> 01:46:15,500
consciously trying to defy our

2369
01:46:19,510 --> 01:46:17,480
expectations they're sort of setting

2370
01:46:22,209 --> 01:46:19,520
them us setting us up they're giving us

2371
01:46:24,189 --> 01:46:22,219
a little bit of information enough to

2372
01:46:25,900 --> 01:46:24,199
keep our interest up but not enough to

2373
01:46:28,150 --> 01:46:25,910
prove anything or to give their true

2374
01:46:31,979 --> 01:46:28,160
nature away I don't see how you can

2375
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:31,989
really be a follower of this phenomenon

2376
01:46:36,550 --> 01:46:35,210
without having these some moments when

2377
01:46:36,790 --> 01:46:36,560
you have to wonder about something like

2378
01:46:38,140 --> 01:46:36,800
that

2379
01:46:40,390 --> 01:46:38,150
are they really are they just playing

2380
01:46:43,390 --> 01:46:40,400
with us I have an analogy that I like to

2381
01:46:46,660 --> 01:46:43,400
use and that is

2382
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:46,670
there you remember Monty Python's Flying

2383
01:46:53,860 --> 01:46:51,530
Circus did you ever see a skip they did

2384
01:46:57,400 --> 01:46:53,870
it called confuse a cat I don't recall

2385
01:46:59,980 --> 01:46:57,410
that one okay you can watch it on

2386
01:47:01,840 --> 01:46:59,990
YouTube it made its it's gonna sound

2387
01:47:05,500 --> 01:47:01,850
ridiculous I'm sure a lot of your

2388
01:47:08,980 --> 01:47:05,510
listeners but I see some parallels

2389
01:47:11,170 --> 01:47:08,990
confuse a cat is this extremely weird

2390
01:47:14,110 --> 01:47:11,180
skit that Monty Python did in which

2391
01:47:15,730 --> 01:47:14,120
these a couple who have a cat that has

2392
01:47:18,670 --> 01:47:15,740
just become completely lethargic and

2393
01:47:20,610 --> 01:47:18,680
uninterested in life and they can't

2394
01:47:23,260 --> 01:47:20,620
figure out any way to get this cat to be

2395
01:47:25,060 --> 01:47:23,270
lively again so they call in this

2396
01:47:28,570 --> 01:47:25,070
service called confuse a cat and it's

2397
01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:28,580
just the Monty Python guys doing weird

2398
01:47:34,900 --> 01:47:33,170
Monty Python nonsense for this cat their

2399
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:34,910
audience is the cat and after they go

2400
01:47:38,910 --> 01:47:37,010
through all this nonsense the cat gets

2401
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:38,920
up and sort of shakes itself off and and

2402
01:47:43,300 --> 01:47:41,690
prances away and the couple are thrilled

2403
01:47:46,030 --> 01:47:43,310
because their cat has been cured by a

2404
01:47:50,860 --> 01:47:46,040
confusing cat I think there's a parallel

2405
01:47:52,990 --> 01:47:50,870
there we are the cat and the you are the

2406
01:47:56,170 --> 01:47:53,000
cat squad it's like like they've been

2407
01:47:57,340 --> 01:47:56,180
sent to give us this like mental kick in

2408
01:48:00,640 --> 01:47:57,350
the pants

2409
01:48:02,230 --> 01:48:00,650
to sort of jar us into thinking

2410
01:48:04,750 --> 01:48:02,240
differently into seeing things

2411
01:48:07,210 --> 01:48:04,760
differently into you know may be

2412
01:48:08,890 --> 01:48:07,220
believing things differently and that

2413
01:48:11,980 --> 01:48:08,900
that was something that was prevalent in

2414
01:48:14,140 --> 01:48:11,990
hynek's thought as well he really key

2415
01:48:15,400 --> 01:48:14,150
times he would say when people would ask

2416
01:48:16,750 --> 01:48:15,410
him well what do you think it is is it

2417
01:48:19,240 --> 01:48:16,760
spaceships from another planet

2418
01:48:23,050 --> 01:48:19,250
and he would say something like well I

2419
01:48:25,510 --> 01:48:23,060
don't know what it is but I I think that

2420
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:25,520
it may be something completely new in

2421
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:27,890
human existence it may be a whole new

2422
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:31,010
part of nature that we have been

2423
01:48:36,250 --> 01:48:34,730
completely blind to up until now well he

2424
01:48:38,740 --> 01:48:36,260
did that kind of speculative thinking so

2425
01:48:41,010 --> 01:48:38,750
so in my mind what he's saying there is

2426
01:48:46,390 --> 01:48:41,020
kind of similar to my confuse a cat

2427
01:48:50,170 --> 01:48:46,400
analogy that somebody or something is is

2428
01:48:54,970 --> 01:48:50,180
trying to kind of keep us off-balance to

2429
01:48:56,590 --> 01:48:54,980
kind of give kind of trying trying to

2430
01:48:58,720 --> 01:48:56,600
keep us you know

2431
01:49:00,820 --> 01:48:58,730
a little bit in the dark just enough so

2432
01:49:02,710 --> 01:49:00,830
that we keep trying to find more answers

2433
01:49:03,940 --> 01:49:02,720
I don't know if that makes sense to

2434
01:49:05,290 --> 01:49:03,950
anybody but that's kind of that's the

2435
01:49:06,850 --> 01:49:05,300
kind of thinking I've developed over the

2436
01:49:09,550 --> 01:49:06,860
course of writing yeah wow that is that

2437
01:49:11,020 --> 01:49:09,560
is really interesting and I've I wonder

2438
01:49:13,060 --> 01:49:11,030
too I've said a number of times in the

2439
01:49:14,650 --> 01:49:13,070
show that you know perhaps what's going

2440
01:49:16,540 --> 01:49:14,660
on is something that we can't even think

2441
01:49:17,170 --> 01:49:16,550
of you know or have not even thought of

2442
01:49:19,750 --> 01:49:17,180
yet

2443
01:49:22,150 --> 01:49:19,760
you know we think of extraterrestrial we

2444
01:49:24,700 --> 01:49:22,160
think of interdimensional time travel

2445
01:49:29,440 --> 01:49:24,710
you name it maybe it's something else

2446
01:49:31,440 --> 01:49:29,450
entirely who knows yeah and you know

2447
01:49:36,190 --> 01:49:31,450
heineken heineken a really interesting

2448
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:36,200
comment in 1975 he and Jacques Vallee

2449
01:49:41,470 --> 01:49:38,090
published a book called the edge of

2450
01:49:44,650 --> 01:49:41,480
reality also a fantastic read that I

2451
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:44,660
would recommend to anybody and the book

2452
01:49:49,330 --> 01:49:46,130
a lot of the book takes the form of

2453
01:49:53,650 --> 01:49:49,340
conversations between dr. Hynek and dr.

2454
01:49:55,300 --> 01:49:53,660
filet and they talk a lot about they

2455
01:49:57,460 --> 01:49:55,310
speculate a lot in this book about the

2456
01:49:59,080 --> 01:49:57,470
true nature of the UFO phenomenon it's a

2457
01:50:00,850 --> 01:49:59,090
lot of very open-minded thinking it

2458
01:50:03,340 --> 01:50:00,860
won't appeal to some people but it

2459
01:50:05,470 --> 01:50:03,350
appeals to me but there's one point at

2460
01:50:08,170 --> 01:50:05,480
which which I know excuse me at which

2461
01:50:10,870 --> 01:50:08,180
Hynek starts he's talking about Carl

2462
01:50:13,930 --> 01:50:10,880
Sagan and how Carl Sagan was always

2463
01:50:16,900 --> 01:50:13,940
throwing a wet blanket on UFO research

2464
01:50:18,940 --> 01:50:16,910
well and dr. Hynek says well but but

2465
01:50:21,610 --> 01:50:18,950
what is Sagan no he goes none of us

2466
01:50:23,740 --> 01:50:21,620
knows how fast thought can travel

2467
01:50:24,820 --> 01:50:23,750
because Sagan would say you know he

2468
01:50:27,220 --> 01:50:24,830
would say well look at the speed of

2469
01:50:28,930 --> 01:50:27,230
light we know that nobody can go faster

2470
01:50:31,720 --> 01:50:28,940
than the speed of light so that makes

2471
01:50:33,790 --> 01:50:31,730
interstellar travel essentially

2472
01:50:37,480 --> 01:50:33,800
impossible so honey comes back and says

2473
01:50:40,360 --> 01:50:37,490
well what if it's not physical what if

2474
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:40,370
it's what if it's how fast thought can

2475
01:50:44,860 --> 01:50:43,250
travel we don't know if thoughts top

2476
01:50:46,390 --> 01:50:44,870
speed is constrained by the speed of

2477
01:50:49,240 --> 01:50:46,400
light the speed of thought could be

2478
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:49,250
infinitely higher and what if the UFO

2479
01:50:54,970 --> 01:50:52,090
phenomenon is as we've been discussed

2480
01:50:57,430 --> 01:50:54,980
seen here tonight this partially a

2481
01:50:59,680 --> 01:50:57,440
psychic phenomena what if it's some sort

2482
01:51:01,630 --> 01:50:59,690
of thought projection from some other

2483
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:01,640
place we don't know but it's something

2484
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:05,090
that is possible so you know again just

2485
01:51:09,610 --> 01:51:07,010
this really interesting expansive kind

2486
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:09,620
of thinking like that Hynek was getting

2487
01:51:13,350 --> 01:51:10,730
into

2488
01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:13,360
late in life I just found it incredibly

2489
01:51:16,630 --> 01:51:15,170
fascinating and they and I think he's

2490
01:51:19,300 --> 01:51:16,640
got a point we don't know how fast

2491
01:51:20,920 --> 01:51:19,310
thought travels so how do we know that

2492
01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:20,930
this isn't just all a thought a thought

2493
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:24,290
process that we are sharing with another

2494
01:51:31,150 --> 01:51:28,400
intelligence about that you know it goes

2495
01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:31,160
back to the phrase you said earlier on

2496
01:51:37,210 --> 01:51:35,360
the coin case and that is when the guy

2497
01:51:38,860 --> 01:51:37,220
said I know what I saw you know and I

2498
01:51:41,860 --> 01:51:38,870
was gonna ask you to if you ever had a

2499
01:51:43,690 --> 01:51:41,870
sighting I had a sighting and for me to

2500
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:43,700
think that it was something to do with

2501
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:46,610
thought you know instead of actually

2502
01:51:50,980 --> 01:51:49,010
what appeared to be in front of my eyes

2503
01:51:56,770 --> 01:51:50,990
that would be really hard pill to

2504
01:51:58,330 --> 01:51:56,780
swallow have you had a sighting I wish I

2505
01:52:00,100 --> 01:51:58,340
could say that I have I've seen I've

2506
01:52:01,900 --> 01:52:00,110
seen a few things that I thought at

2507
01:52:04,180 --> 01:52:01,910
first were UFOs but when I thought about

2508
01:52:07,900 --> 01:52:04,190
them later I realized they were probably

2509
01:52:11,410 --> 01:52:07,910
Chinese lanterns so I would say no I

2510
01:52:14,350 --> 01:52:11,420
haven't and as to what you were saying

2511
01:52:15,340 --> 01:52:14,360
about your own encounter during this

2512
01:52:19,030 --> 01:52:15,350
idea that it might just be a

2513
01:52:20,770 --> 01:52:19,040
psychological event here's here's one of

2514
01:52:22,690 --> 01:52:20,780
here's the heart of hynek's thinking

2515
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:22,700
that went behind that he would compare

2516
01:52:27,940 --> 01:52:24,170
the UFO phenomenon to the nature of

2517
01:52:32,290 --> 01:52:27,950
light light is something that modern

2518
01:52:32,710 --> 01:52:32,300
modern physics can't really get a grip

2519
01:52:35,530 --> 01:52:32,720
on

2520
01:52:37,900 --> 01:52:35,540
because at times light behaves like a

2521
01:52:40,630 --> 01:52:37,910
wave and then other times light behaves

2522
01:52:42,550 --> 01:52:40,640
like a solid particle and it we know

2523
01:52:47,230 --> 01:52:42,560
from science tells us that it can't be

2524
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:47,240
both and yet it does seem to be both it

2525
01:52:53,500 --> 01:52:49,690
seems to sort of change its very nature

2526
01:52:54,970 --> 01:52:53,510
depending on how its observed and how

2527
01:52:58,000 --> 01:52:54,980
its analyzed and it's something that

2528
01:53:01,960 --> 01:52:58,010
simply has not been explained yet so

2529
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:01,970
Hine Nick would say UFOs are very very

2530
01:53:10,260 --> 01:53:05,810
similar some in in some instances says

2531
01:53:13,090 --> 01:53:10,270
if they seem to have physical

2532
01:53:14,710 --> 01:53:13,100
characteristics they can be seen they

2533
01:53:16,900 --> 01:53:14,720
can be photographed they can be tracked

2534
01:53:19,450 --> 01:53:16,910
on radar they can be shot at you can

2535
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:19,460
throw a rock at it you know they do seem

2536
01:53:23,730 --> 01:53:21,530
to have a physical presence and yet that

2537
01:53:25,620 --> 01:53:23,740
very same UFO

2538
01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:25,630
turn around and behave like something

2539
01:53:30,210 --> 01:53:27,250
that has no physical presence at all

2540
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:30,220
because when the event is over the UFO

2541
01:53:36,090 --> 01:53:33,570
seems to simply D materialize or

2542
01:53:37,530 --> 01:53:36,100
disappear into a pinpoint of light so

2543
01:53:38,910 --> 01:53:37,540
that was kind of high Matt hynix

2544
01:53:41,250 --> 01:53:38,920
thinking was that you know the UFO

2545
01:53:43,620 --> 01:53:41,260
phenomenon itself has that duality to it

2546
01:53:45,420 --> 01:53:43,630
just like the nature of light so that

2547
01:53:47,940 --> 01:53:45,430
was kind of how he worked his way into

2548
01:53:52,470 --> 01:53:47,950
that kind of thinking wow isn't that

2549
01:53:58,050 --> 01:53:52,480
something yeah I feel like I'm really

2550
01:54:00,660 --> 01:53:58,060
pushing you here no no no I I love

2551
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:00,670
hearing all different aspects and to

2552
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:02,530
hear what he actually thought about it

2553
01:54:07,410 --> 01:54:05,650
I mean it's really fascinating and I bet

2554
01:54:14,070 --> 01:54:07,420
it was really an exciting book for you

2555
01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:14,080
to write excuse me yeah it was I learned

2556
01:54:18,660 --> 01:54:15,760
a lot I changed a lot a lot of my

2557
01:54:19,980 --> 01:54:18,670
attitudes changed and can I just share

2558
01:54:21,630 --> 01:54:19,990
one story that you haven't asked about

2559
01:54:24,450 --> 01:54:21,640
this but while I'm thinking about sort

2560
01:54:25,410 --> 01:54:24,460
of what you just said about you know how

2561
01:54:27,810 --> 01:54:25,420
much fun it was writing this book

2562
01:54:29,580 --> 01:54:27,820
another really nice discovery I made

2563
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:29,590
about dr. Hynek came when I started

2564
01:54:34,350 --> 01:54:30,850
looking through his files at

2565
01:54:36,150 --> 01:54:34,360
Northwestern University and he got a lot

2566
01:54:40,730 --> 01:54:36,160
of correspondence from people all around

2567
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:40,740
the world who would write to him and say

2568
01:54:46,590 --> 01:54:44,830
I would like to well some people would

2569
01:54:48,510 --> 01:54:46,600
say can you please send me more

2570
01:54:49,830 --> 01:54:48,520
information about UFOs you've gotten me

2571
01:54:52,050 --> 01:54:49,840
really interested and I want to learn

2572
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:52,060
more some people would write to him and

2573
01:54:57,390 --> 01:54:55,330
say I had a really unusual UFO event I

2574
01:54:58,560 --> 01:54:57,400
would love to tell you about it some

2575
01:55:02,690 --> 01:54:58,570
people would write to him and actually

2576
01:55:05,610 --> 01:55:02,700
say things like hey I have an idea for a

2577
01:55:07,290 --> 01:55:05,620
actual motion machine can I tell you

2578
01:55:16,500 --> 01:55:07,300
about my new theory of reality they

2579
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:16,510
would oh ok hands a very long for email

2580
01:55:22,530 --> 01:55:18,010
a lot of these letters were handwritten

2581
01:55:23,940 --> 01:55:22,540
and they would go on bubble describing

2582
01:55:26,250 --> 01:55:23,950
their experiences are sharing their

2583
01:55:27,390 --> 01:55:26,260
thoughts with dr. Hynek and I would look

2584
01:55:29,580 --> 01:55:27,400
at these letters and I would get

2585
01:55:32,490 --> 01:55:29,590
exhausted or anything I think oh my god

2586
01:55:34,200 --> 01:55:32,500
I would I don't know how I would do this

2587
01:55:35,790 --> 01:55:34,210
I don't know if I'd be able to respond

2588
01:55:37,500 --> 01:55:35,800
to this well guess what

2589
01:55:39,180 --> 01:55:37,510
you keep looking through these files in

2590
01:55:41,700 --> 01:55:39,190
you start to see the letters that dr.

2591
01:55:43,290 --> 01:55:41,710
Hynek wrote back to these people and

2592
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:43,300
sometimes his assistant bill powers

2593
01:55:47,339 --> 01:55:45,130
would take care of the correspondence

2594
01:55:49,410 --> 01:55:47,349
for him but whether it was dr. Hynek or

2595
01:55:51,149 --> 01:55:49,420
Bill powers who wrote the letter the

2596
01:55:57,209 --> 01:55:51,159
tone of these letters they wrote back to

2597
01:56:01,439 --> 01:55:57,219
people was uniformly a tone of respect

2598
01:56:04,140 --> 01:56:01,449
and curiosity and thumb-up fulness

2599
01:56:07,709 --> 01:56:04,150
didn't howl off the wall a person's

2600
01:56:10,740 --> 01:56:07,719
thought or story would be heineken

2601
01:56:14,069 --> 01:56:10,750
powers would always write back to that

2602
01:56:15,779 --> 01:56:14,079
person and say hey I really figured let

2603
01:56:17,490 --> 01:56:15,789
her interesting some things I want to

2604
01:56:19,049 --> 01:56:17,500
ask you about it you know this thing you

2605
01:56:21,120 --> 01:56:19,059
mentioned on page two can you be more

2606
01:56:23,669 --> 01:56:21,130
specific they would they would treat all

2607
01:56:25,740 --> 01:56:23,679
these people who wrote to them with just

2608
01:56:27,660 --> 01:56:25,750
undying respect and I was so impressed

2609
01:56:29,729 --> 01:56:27,670
by that and when I had a chance to

2610
01:56:34,169 --> 01:56:29,739
interview Bill powers shortly before he

2611
01:56:35,790 --> 01:56:34,179
passed away I brought that out to do it

2612
01:56:38,310 --> 01:56:35,800
I said I would never have been able to

2613
01:56:41,819 --> 01:56:38,320
have the patience how did you and dr.

2614
01:56:44,009 --> 01:56:41,829
Hynek keep writing back those wonderful

2615
01:56:46,350 --> 01:56:44,019
letters to these people and Bill just

2616
01:56:48,899 --> 01:56:46,360
said you know he said Ellen and I both

2617
01:56:52,020 --> 01:56:48,909
just thought that if person has an idea

2618
01:56:54,870 --> 01:56:52,030
to share or a story to tell they deserve

2619
01:56:57,120 --> 01:56:54,880
to be listened to and that was it that

2620
01:57:00,509 --> 01:56:57,130
was their secret very nice Wow that is

2621
01:57:02,729 --> 01:57:00,519
that it's so simple and yet it's so

2622
01:57:04,770 --> 01:57:02,739
powerful and so that was kind of how I

2623
01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:04,780
tried to approach things as I wrote the

2624
01:57:10,109 --> 01:57:07,090
book I tried to keep that same attitude

2625
01:57:12,060 --> 01:57:10,119
and approach about my work and we know

2626
01:57:14,339 --> 01:57:12,070
when I interviewed people when I read

2627
01:57:16,379 --> 01:57:14,349
taste reports I always wanted to look at

2628
01:57:19,169 --> 01:57:16,389
things that way so I owe them both a

2629
01:57:22,529 --> 01:57:19,179
huge debt for for establishing that

2630
01:57:25,169 --> 01:57:22,539
really wonderful high standards of out

2631
01:57:26,580 --> 01:57:25,179
of how to talk about these things well

2632
01:57:31,950 --> 01:57:26,590
we're at the end of the show do you have

2633
01:57:34,620 --> 01:57:31,960
a website my blog is high strangeness

2634
01:57:37,680 --> 01:57:34,630
UFO calm that's all one word lowercase

2635
01:57:40,379 --> 01:57:37,690
high strangeness UFO of course that's a

2636
01:57:42,540 --> 01:57:40,389
very good blog by the way I really

2637
01:57:44,970 --> 01:57:42,550
encourage I forgot that was your blog

2638
01:57:48,479 --> 01:57:44,980
yes it's very good so thanks so much

2639
01:57:51,299 --> 01:57:48,489
well and I can can I say really quickly

2640
01:57:52,709 --> 01:57:51,309
I'm starting to I just started yesterday

2641
01:57:54,839 --> 01:57:52,719
and I'm gonna continue this over the

2642
01:57:56,669 --> 01:57:54,849
coming weeks there were several parts to

2643
01:57:59,250 --> 01:57:56,679
the book that had to be edited out for

2644
01:58:01,379 --> 01:57:59,260
space and my publisher has given me the

2645
01:58:03,029 --> 01:58:01,389
go-ahead to put that material up on my

2646
01:58:05,189 --> 01:58:03,039
blog sorry follow along in the blog

2647
01:58:07,049 --> 01:58:05,199
you'll hear you'll hear some good

2648
01:58:09,329 --> 01:58:07,059
stories about Hynek that didn't make

2649
01:58:11,729 --> 01:58:09,339
excellent okay mark well thanks so much

2650
01:58:14,250 --> 01:58:11,739
really appreciate it there's a lot of

2651
01:58:17,790 --> 01:58:14,260
fun thank how are you it's been a blast

2652
01:58:19,709 --> 01:58:17,800
Martinez all right take care good night

2653
01:58:22,319 --> 01:58:19,719
alright everyone so thank you so much

2654
01:58:24,239 --> 01:58:22,329
for hanging in your either supporting

2655
01:58:26,669 --> 01:58:24,249
the show you're listening live or on the

2656
01:58:30,989 --> 01:58:26,679
dark matter digital network thank you

2657
01:58:34,609 --> 01:58:30,999
all and next week we have a event I

2658
01:58:37,109 --> 01:58:34,619
think is Venezuelan or a Brazilian I

2659
01:58:39,469 --> 01:58:37,119
can't remember South American I will

2660
01:58:45,750 --> 01:58:39,479
tell you that he is a UFO researcher and

2661
01:58:49,709 --> 01:58:45,760
it's Tiago Lewis tkt and he'll be on

2662
01:58:51,209 --> 01:58:49,719
he's actually very interesting and I

2663
01:58:54,719 --> 01:58:51,219
think it'll be a great show next week

2664
01:58:56,609 --> 01:58:54,729
hope you come back for that again if

2665
01:58:59,250 --> 01:58:56,619
you're supporting the show I want to

2666
01:59:11,520 --> 01:58:59,260
thank you so much and remember everyone

2667
01:59:15,509 --> 01:59:11,530
to keep your eyes to the sky and my my

2668
01:59:18,329 --> 01:59:15,519
musics not playing so let me see that's

2669
01:59:19,500 --> 01:59:18,339
it so everyone thanks so much I'll have

2670
01:59:22,529 --> 01:59:19,510
to figure out what's going on with that